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Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by awscurrentdev on Sunday June 20, 2021 @10:31AM (#27570381)
Current AWS engineer here, can confirm. I'm absolutely broken. I'd second the point about the manager and pre-existing conditions making up the job. It's not clear to me if it's endemic, these are big orgs with teams run very differently.

That being said, the on-call sucks. It's really awful, and something I've never seen before. It's also typically the primary cause of team churn for people in my org. This varies, as I've seen other teams stacked with L6 engineers with very little churn (4-8 years of tenure each). This is very much a pit of despair of our own making, but I still haven't figured out how teams like mine get out of it. My own view is that normalization of deviance means that engineers who've only worked at AWS just accept that getting paged many times in a week at awful hours for false positives is OK.

There's certainly a view that the only way to get promoted (which is incredibly difficult) is to create new features or products. You read this of many orgs though, not just AWS. I'm not convinced it's fair to single out AWS. It can be endemic in some teams, and I've certainly worked with engineers who are clearly only focused on shining for promotion.

The worst I've seen was a team go from 8 engineers with > 2+ yrs tenure down to 4 people with < 6 months, over the course of a couple of months. This was for an enormous product. That team had a very tough 4th quarter.

AWS does handle operations failure incredibly well. If you've hopped on a LSE call before, the execution to identify, mitigate and review correction of error (COE) is world class. Doc / design review is also very thorough.

There's ample opportunity to learn a lot during your time at AWS, and many engineers have carved out incredible careers in this place. Just go in with your eyes wide open.

Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by doktorhladnjak on Sunday June 20, 2021 @05:04PM (#27573902)
> pit of despair of our own making, but I still haven't figured out how teams like mine get out of it.

I’ve only seen two ways out: 1. Team implodes when everybody leaves, reorg follows making it some other team’s problem 2. Management recognizes it’s a problem, takes it seriously by staffing the team with enough people to sustainably address the tech debt/operational load AND build new features

Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by imwillofficial on Sunday June 20, 2021 @12:47PM (#27571750)
I’m sorry you’re having a rough time. Hang in there, and if you move on, good luck!
Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by awscurrentdev on Sunday June 20, 2021 @06:29PM (#27574440)
Thank you, I appreciate you saying this. I don't want to give the impression it's all awful though. We are reasonably well compensated (you do a lot better if you're based in certain countries than others).

There are part of this job that were a lot harder than I could have imagined. The aim of my earlier comment was to make this clear to people considering AWS. When the hiring manager interviews you and mentions there's "an on-call component to this job", realise that it _can_ be severe. The on-call time is also unpaid; it's also very difficult to spend significant time on improving this situation, if that's possible at all. Other comments have done a better job of describing this.

There are parts of the job that are fantastic. You have access to some outstanding engineers (this is also the case at many other companies though). Almost all of the principal engineers I've interacted with have been very generous with their time and knowledge. I thoroughly enjoy the Principals of Amazons talks, and subsequent discussions. I've also had the opportunity to be able to look very deeply at technical problems (this is a direct result of my manager). Having worked at a number of SMEs before, this wouldn't have been the case. You also work on systems being used by so many people (this is mostly wonderful in hindsight), which having worked on products that have evaporated into the ether in the past, is rewarding.

It's not for everyone, and it's certainly not forever at AWS. My guess is I'll walk away with some scars and a much better idea of what I want I don't want to spend my time doing.

You'll learn a lot and cry a lot.

Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by snorberhuis on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:42AM (#27577388)
> The on-call time is also unpaid

This is why on-call should never be unpaid. There is no incentive to reduce cost and improve that way.

[dead]
Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by dang on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:42PM (#27584177)
Your GP comment was just fine, but where you went with this one and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27573815 is not cool. Please don't lash out like that in HN comments. When unfairly downvoted, remember that corrective upvotes are a thing (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...) and misclicks are also a thing, and please just move on.

Complaints like this, besides being tedious and breaking the site guidelines, usually also end by being uncollected off-topic garbage when the original comment gets corrective upvotes, as yours has.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by imwillofficial on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:38PM (#27620083)
Great points. Thank you for taking the time to correct.
[dead]
Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by dang on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:41PM (#27584161)
That's not appropriate, as pg made clear back at the beginning:

Empty comments can be ok if they're positive. There's nothing wrong with submitting a comment saying just "Thanks." What we especially discourage are comments that are empty and negative—comments that are mere name-calling.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by laegooose on Sunday June 20, 2021 @11:13AM (#27570803)
What is LSE?
Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by kablow on Sunday June 20, 2021 @11:33AM (#27571010)
"large scale event" or something to that affect - these issues are visible to everyone company-wide
Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by exikyut on Sunday June 20, 2021 @11:26AM (#27570940)
Quote-Googling produced "Large Scale Event"
Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by atopuzov on Sunday June 20, 2021 @11:39AM (#27571090)
Large scale event, something that has big impact on services.
Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by pyuser583 on Sunday June 20, 2021 @01:09PM (#27571939)
London School of Economics ;)
Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by vr46 on Sunday June 20, 2021 @04:35PM (#27573669)
Sorry to hear about your awful job, is this only in engineering or does it affect professional services like solutions architects etc too?
Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by awsthro00945 on Sunday June 20, 2021 @04:45PM (#27573744)
ProServe and SAs have little-to-no on-call responsibilities, but the general workload issues and mindsets affect those teams as well. Just as an example, resource management (aka staffing) and project scoping are things that AWS Sales is absolutely fucking awful at, and are things in particular that other consulting companies have figured out decades ago, but AWS does nothing to improve the shitty staffing processes because they have essentially just thrown up their hands and think the inefficient, inaccurate, and incredibly stress-inducing process is normal.
Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by vr46 on Monday June 21, 2021 @08:20PM (#27586359)
Of course, I guess there's no perfect isolation. A friend at Amazon set me up a video call last year with an SA at AWS (Seattle/NW) so I could inquire about working there. It sounded pretty cool but I wasn't sure. I didn't think that AWS consulting was much of a thing, since my experience client-side has been that AWS will advise but not build. Anyway, irrelevant to this thread. Not sure consulting is much better away from AWS as in my world, it's 90% dependent on the client you're with and boy have I had some awful projects.
Re:Hire-to-fire at Amazon India? by awsthro00945 on Monday June 21, 2021 @08:29PM (#27586446)
Based on my experience working on different teams and interfacing with the SA teams (but not actually working as an SA, mind you), being an SA at AWS seems to be one of the better positions in terms of workload, limited on-call responsibilities, etc, but you do need to be very comfortable with constant customer-facing responsibilities (which can sometimes be better than on-call, and sometimes can be worse than on-call) and the team is still dragged down by the general Amazon/AWS culture.