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Re:U.S. senators propose 25% tax credit for semiconductor ma... by jollybean on Saturday June 19, 2021 @06:10PM (#27564957)
Shenzen has elements which are probably not reproducible.

But 1) subsidies are what we would call a 'distortion' and those should be dealt with, possibly with anti-dumping tariffs;

2) There is such a thing as 'strategic investment' in key industries where the bar is very high and $10M from a VC won't help. This is where we need coordinated leadership.

3) There are other ways of 'building stuff'. Automation, AI etc. present opportunities for creating substitutes for those value chains.

In particular, I think what the DARPA should push for is a robotic 'pair of hands' - i.e. a very easily programable set of very nimble robotic hands with accompanying vision, that can be made to do specific tasks within parameters i.e. 'pick up that part, add this other part' and handle most of the weird things that can go wrong.

4) In germs of geopolitics ... it may be more ideal to push for more diversity in sourcing and to help develop India, Malaysia, Mexico etc. towards doing at least more of those things. That's hard though.

Re:U.S. senators propose 25% tax credit for semiconductor ma... by thevagrant on Saturday June 19, 2021 @07:43PM (#27565614)
Personally, if the west can't build stuff it is only a matter of time before we are the customer and the prices start rising and our debt starts to crunch. There will be some part/component that during conflict becomes necessary but no ability to manufacture.

We will have lost our knowledge and it'll take decades to recover, if we can recover at all.

The billionaires will escape unscathed.

I agree with point 4. If we had distributed supply chain then things may work better longer term but I am amazed that businesses still look to offshore everything without looking at the long term prospects of their workers and communities.

Re:U.S. senators propose 25% tax credit for semiconductor ma... by sudosysgen on Saturday June 19, 2021 @11:26PM (#27566838)
Short of an amazing breakthrough in automation, this is basically inevitable. If you think about it in terms of labour values (I know, but stick with it) the West basically gets to do unequal exchange, the average westerner consumes a lot more labour-hours than they actually work.

Now the reason for that is that behind every hour of work of an average westerner there's a lot more capital helping, and more educational capital too. But if developing countries do get closer, then inevitably prices will start rising.

Not all industries can benefit so much from added capital. Those that can, and the service economy, are done in developped countries. Those that can't, are done in developing countries. If the two equalize, then the inequality in labour hours will equalize and westerners will either have to work more or consume less of products that are made in developing countries.

Re:U.S. senators propose 25% tax credit for semiconductor ma... by jollybean on Sunday June 20, 2021 @12:45AM (#27567139)
There's no reason to think that there will be some kind of 'equalization'.

There is no natural force driving it.

You could argue the trade imbalance in which money flows a little bit more in one direction, but that can actually go on so long as the 'Richer Nations' are growing the economic base and expanding the money supply in serviceable terms.

But what's hidden in the obvious discussion of which direction money is flowing in trade ... is the direction that surplus is flowing. The economic surplus is pretty much on the side of the more powerful countries. Everyone benefits, but the rich nations benefit more.

Almost all of the corporate value (i.e. net profits) in the iPhone is realized in the US. The consumer surpluses are also vast but they are distributed to whoever actually buys an iPhone.

As long as trade isn't too imbalanced and much of the actual cash can be returned to 'Rich Nations' by sale of services etc., and, those net consumer/industrial surpluses remain big ... the equilibrium of 'poor countries doing labour and rich countries doing services' can go on essentially forever.

The factors that will change are:

1) China is going 'up market' and will provide more advanced things.

2) The Rest of the World will start to provide competitive labour - and more importantly - be vehicles of consumption as well making rich export markets for everyone.

3) AI will probably affect production in fairly significant ways. Robots with a little bit of dexterity and AI might very well be able to do some tricky assembly ... can you imagine that they could actually lay out, fold and cut fabric? And then sew together pieces? I can see that happening.

Finally, I would say it's definitely not good to look at all of this as a 'zero sum' game, and ultimately wealth is only relative anyhow.

If we ignore the geostrategic and social issues about power, and 'liberal democracy' etc. - there's every opportunity for a lot of poor nations to move up the ladder very quickly (already happening) and for rich countries to stay rich. As those nations 'catch up' their rate of acceleration slows down somewhat as it's rather difficult to 'get ahead' let alone 'stay ahead' for long. I don't even think China will ever actually 'get ahead' - they are, per capita, still quite poor on the whole and their growth is slowing.

As cultural values start to shift, the very measures we use for 'Purchasing Power Parity' start to shift as well. For example, how do we put a price on clean air, vacation, basic freedoms? And from a less secular but still hugely relevant perspective - living among one's culture, with one's 'people', the architecture, the view from your office/home, the lovely bike path to work, the gardens, the local bier garden where you see your friends, the local football team etc. etc.. People already to value those things a lot (see: Europe) they just don't directly factor into our equations. Over the next few decades we're going to rely less heavily on GDP and more on other measures.

Re:U.S. senators propose 25% tax credit for semiconductor ma... by sudosysgen on Sunday June 20, 2021 @01:24AM (#27567357)
Well, of course there is a reason. It's very simple. Growth rates are much lower in richer countries than the rest of the world. As an economy matures, the growth rate slows down. Therefore there is a a tendency towards equalization.

It doesn't need to become exactly equal. The gap just needs to shorten. And it does, at exponential speeds.

Already the average GDP in the West is only twice the worldwide average, this only shrinks every year.

Re:U.S. senators propose 25% tax credit for semiconductor ma... by imtringued on Sunday June 20, 2021 @01:22AM (#27567347)
Exporting your deficit to the US forever can't work. It doesn't solve the paradox of saving. Eventually you have to realize that the us treasuries you were buying won't be honored and everything you exported was a free gift to the US. In short, the IOUs you spent so many real resources to acquire are an illusion if you take too long to turn them in.

Honestly, anyone who falls for a paradox of competition deserves it.

Re:U.S. senators propose 25% tax credit for semiconductor ma... by scotty79 on Sunday June 20, 2021 @01:50AM (#27567488)
I think a key to Shenzen that's not reproducible in US is total disregard for patents and intelectual property. This disregard was a key to fast progress everywhere wherever fast progress happened.
Re:U.S. senators propose 25% tax credit for semiconductor ma... by laurent92 on Sunday June 20, 2021 @02:18AM (#27567615)
Are patents and IP even a good thing? Preventing idea or bytes from spreading, what kind of silly thing to try to protect. Look at software: OSS is probably the 1st world wonder, and Debian and Postgres will last for millenia. The rest of the software world is moving to the cloud, where the source is not visible to the user anyway. Software never successfully relied on the law to be protected.

Same for the film industry. Piracy is common consumption, law has had no power in this billion dollar industry, and yet this industry is striving. I say, companies should be allowed to protect their films with the DRM they want, but once the film is in the open, the law shouldn’t try to protect it from being copied. So you’d just pay to be among the first to see the movie, in a good quality, and the rest of peer-to-peer would be legal.

IP law and patents is a weird contraption, making very little money compared to what it costs, and a major risk to any innovating company. IP law is a major drag on our industry, that’s not even respected by our real competitors.

Re:U.S. senators propose 25% tax credit for semiconductor ma... by ryandrake on Sunday June 20, 2021 @12:43PM (#27571710)
> Are patents and IP even a good thing? Preventing idea or bytes from spreading, what kind of silly thing to try to protect.

The theory is: Nobody will invent anything if they don't have a monopoly on the idea. As if without patents, someone would have a great idea and say "I'm not going to invent this thing and become a millionaire, because someone else might copy it cheaply and become a bigger millionaire! Nope, rather just keep stocking shelves!"

Re:U.S. senators propose 25% tax credit for semiconductor ma... by lastyearman on Sunday June 20, 2021 @03:12PM (#27573021)
But would you ever invest in an idea that could be easily copied?
Re:U.S. senators propose 25% tax credit for semiconductor ma... by jpindar on Sunday June 20, 2021 @12:27AM (#27567074)
There was a time when NYC was kinda like Shenzen. My friends and I loved to go down to Canal Street to prowl through the electronics and industrial equipment stores that looked a lot like the videos I've seen.
Re:U.S. senators propose 25% tax credit for semiconductor ma... by brandonmenc on Saturday June 19, 2021 @08:27PM (#27565866)
> Shenzen has elements which are probably not reproducible.

They are reproducible if we have the political will.