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Re:Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps by orwin on Saturday June 19, 2021 @10:43AM (#27560806)
> Especially with kids, the problem is the environment. Generally not the home environment, but the school.

Yeah, no. I'm not living in the US so maybe you really have a weird bully culture like it was showed in TV shows ten years ago, but no, generally its the home environment. Some children DO have issues with schools and schoolwork, but the broken children i took care of when i was a youth camp counselor were broken at home. Wether it was rape, daily violence (acid on the face was the worse, luckily one eye was saved) or sometime just psychological torture (fun time when a father prostitute his wife and his child until she loose it and put him in a hospital). Oh, and the trucker stepfather taking his 11 year old stepdaughter in his truck for short haul because he needs company, and the mother keeping her daughter from speaking about it?

I'm sure in some cases, the psychologists are overzealous. But i took care of placed children every summer for 6 years, and yes, mistake were probably made for some, but for the vast majority? I'm sure even hearing about half their life would make you ask why they were not taken away sooner. The eleven yo girl i talked about, do you know how it was detected? She started blowing guys in the school toilet. Probably a "shool issue", yes, obviously. Without the school, i wonder how this would have been detected.

Re:Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps by candiodari on Saturday June 19, 2021 @03:51PM (#27563831)
Whether children were wrongly placed is not a matter of whether there's a reason at all, but a matter of whether the kids are better off like this.

This has been researched and the answer is largely no.

I would also like to point out those kids are repeating what social workers tell them to avoid trouble. At least half of it isn't true.

I want to repeat what I said before. It isn't because home situations are great. It's just how bad youth services are.

Re:Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps by candiodari on Sunday June 20, 2021 @07:44AM (#27569143)
See for example the largest study on CPS ever:

https://sci-hub.se/10.1257/aer.97.5.1583

Or it's popular summary "Troubled homes better than foster care":

https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-07-02-foste...

And let's not forget just how bad the reputation of CPS is where it comes to getting things wrong. Some studies claim that false accusations of child abuse, because there is no standard of proof for taking the kids away (only for locking up the perpetrators), that the false diagnoses and false accusations far outnumber the true ones.

And like anyone who's seen an orphanage (they don't like to be called that anymore) and half of all foster homes knows. Seeing damaged kids in those places is perfectly normal: those places damage kids. These places are not hospitals, where patients come in damaged and get fixed. These places damage kids, they don't fix them. They're more like the ragged pillow at the bottom of a half-pipe, a catchment area for broken bones, doing MUCH more to protect the reputation of the rest of the system than preventing or helping with injuries.

And the horrible thing about such places is that they effectively prevent the kids from having a future (they have extremely bad schools, no alternatives, limited learning materials, ...), but throw them out at 18 years (and please: 21 years or even something ridiculous like 45 years would NOT be better). Please stop pretending that after 10 years where crime (from stealing from other kids to dealing drugs) is the only way to get even a trivial little extra, no-one would remain clean.

That only happens in protected settings. And the sad truth is that even very bad parents still provide a very protected setting for kids.

Besides, these places, for the large majority they don't even try: treatment, though often the very reason kids get taken away, effectively doesn't happen in such places. Just 1 underpaid person, often without any qualifications, per 15 or 20 kids, and some director "handling" 20 groups. That's all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Term_12

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Crasher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_Family

Please note: "System Crasher" is the more realistic of these movies (especially "Instant Family" is extremely toned down, I can guarantee a kid doesn't just shout 2 sentences if they fear everything they have will be taken away. They fight and scream and cry and kick and ... for 2 months).

If you watch "System Crasher" 5 times you will even start to see WHAT is happening. This kid made a mistake. Mistake lead to reputation (ie. to school teacher at the very least pestering her), which escalated matters. Help, effectively meant using violence against the child and more and more fear. And of course, the kid never gets any say, and therefore never learns WHY one needs control over oneself. This escalates and escalates and escalates BECAUSE OF YOUTH SERVICES. If they refused to intervene in the beginning of the problem, the odds of it just blowing over were very, very high, as the kid and parents would be forced to self-regulate their relationship. That would have happened, and at that point there would no longer have been a problem. And, frankly, it's hard to argue that any tactic, other than what was done, was worse, given the outcome.