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Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by desine on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:09PM (#27532905)
Beautiful Racket was one of the sites that helped me learn the language/toolset, along with HTDP, by Felleisen. This is troubling, but the lack of detail and context is also troubling. I would wager most of us in the CS community have experienced personalities that deliver harsh criticism. The types of people that often don't realize how vicious their tone comes across. I also have no doubt that I on occasion have been more abrasive than I intended to. There's many in this community that are "on the spectrum", but there's an even broader spectrum that exists in programmers of people that are too in their own heads, or just not properly socially adjusted, with no medical definition. I don't wish to make excuses for bad behavior, but there's also the potential cultural differences of Felleisen being German, and the stress involved with trying to organize a convention. Even after being degraded by Felleisen, Butterick received a high rating for his teaching by Felleisen? This sounds like a stereotypically "cold" German personality and and a soft kind American personality just generating friction. I've seen it other times within my teams (without the specifically German cultural aspect); instances where one abrasive person doesn't realize how much they've affected one softer, kinder person. And instances where a sensitive person (not even overly-so) feels personally slighted by what was just a bad mood or an bad moment.

I'm disappointed to hear that a great Racket contributor feels wronged and slighted, especially to the point of reducing his passion for contributing to the project. But the linked post doesn't give me enough to go to my pitchfork closet either. I guess it's something to keep an eye on for other signs

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by parenwielder on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:15PM (#27532954)
Firstly, the high rating that Butterick received for his teaching (the highest of all the instructors) was given by the students, not Matthias.

Secondly, Matthias has lived in the United States for virtually his entire adult life. Longer than probably the majority of the posters here have been alive. The issue is not one of cultural differences or a misunderstanding. Matthias behaves this way consistently, is unapologetic for it, and when pressed will explain that his "challenging behavior" (i.e. abuse) is some kind of test of your ideas, your willpower, or your capacity for success.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by desine on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:16PM (#27532976)
>Matthias behaves this way consistently, is unapologetic for it, and when pressed will explain that his "challenging behavior" (i.e. abuse) is some kind of test of your ideas, your willpower, or your capacity for success.

This would also change the context, but I haven't heard anything else about this, which again is why I'm deciding to pay more attention, but not quite ready to demand any sort of community uprising against him.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by parenwielder on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:20PM (#27533029)
Frankly, if you haven't heard anything about it, it's because you are not a part of the community that Matthias is in (whether that be Racket or Academic Programming Languages). It's very far from a secret, though obviously people's individual tolerance for his behavior varies.
Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by desine on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:23PM (#27533051)
Yeah I just started picking up Lisp with SICP during the lockdown. AFAIK this is the first time it's hit the front of HN or any other pages I follow
Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by watwut on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @05:39PM (#27533772)
So, you know nothing about the situation, but are confident to claim that it is all misunderstanding, that Matthew Butterick is essentially not understanding situation and so on.

It is unfair to Matthew Butterick and to anyone in his situation.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by desine on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @07:54PM (#27534809)
No, my entire post was that I wasn't confident about anything, getting just one viewpoint. I rather dislike the implication you're making here. I'm not going to crucify Felleisen over a single blog post, even from a source I respect. I'm also not letting it go, committing to paying more attention to the racket community.
Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by aseipp on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @11:46PM (#27535964)
I mean, I was in the Haskell community for many years and have stepped away many years ago, have never attended anything related to RacketCon, and only recently found Pollen from Butterick. I still had already heard about Matthias and his "teaching style" well before any of this, from merely being in the general functional programming community atmosphere. I've seen rumblings about it on HN more than once too.

Like, I think the thrust of the claim here isn't that you're necessarily arguing in bad faith or something. It's more likely a sense of frustration that something which is so relatively out in the open and obvious is even being "contested" at all (not to shove words in your mouth but just for lack of a better one.) And to be fair to you, this dynamic of "open secret" is very common with abusers, for the literal exact reasons Butterick outlined in the post. So it's not like an original sin or anything...

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by watwut on Thursday June 17, 2021 @01:34AM (#27536388)
You dont express uncertainity nor ask questions. You as much as you make claims about it all being (paraphrasing) "just normal harsh" or "cold German personality". Those are statements.

No one asks you to crucify anyone. Nor to pay attention to that community. If it is pit od way for you that is perfectly fine.

What I took issue with is that reflexive impulse to assume that if someone complains about bad treatment, that person much be wrong, weak or some such.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by yawaramin on Thursday June 17, 2021 @06:41PM (#27545246)
The thing is, you know nothing for sure, everything you say is pure speculation, and you are confidently commenting about the situation. If you know nothing, why make up speculation out of thin air?
Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by jgwil2 on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:12PM (#27532932)
> Even after being degraded by Felleisen, Butterick received a high rating for his teaching by Felleisen?

I believe you've misunderstood a sentence from the article. The author meant he received higher ratings than all other teachers, including Felleisen, from students, not that Felleisen himself rated the author's teaching highly.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by desine on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:15PM (#27532953)
Ah, you're right, thank you. That does change the context a bit.
Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by CoastalCoder on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @04:14PM (#27532949)
> Even after being degraded by Felleisen, Butterick received a high rating for his teaching by Felleisen?

I think you may have misread this part: "At the end, the students gave me the best eval­u­a­tion scores of all the instruc­tors—Felleisen included."

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by watwut on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @05:36PM (#27533747)
> I would wager most of us in the CS community have experienced personalities that deliver harsh criticism. The types of people that often don't realize how vicious their tone comes across.

Often it is actually content that is bad and not just tone. Also, not every aggressive jerk has autism.

Many autists do put a lot of work into not be assholes. Where they fail, they also do comparatively much less harm then neurotypocal person who takes pleasure in mistreating you.

Re:Why I no longer contribute to Racket by desine on Wednesday June 16, 2021 @07:12PM (#27534562)
Yes, agreed, for the most part, but it's also kind of painting with broad strokes. Those of us on the spectrum do not approach social interactions with the same mental framework as people without ASD. But from that rather large group one could easily divide groups of "I realize I am different and I must put an effort into pleasing others" personalities, and "I realize I am different but it does not matter as long as I am correct" personalities, among many others. ASD being described as a spectrum is accurate - the point where I don't think it should even all fall under one umbrella.

My point was only that there's a statistically notable number of ASD people in the computation fields, and there's a lot of anti-social personalities in the world, inlcuding CS, without ASD.

Apologies if it came off as painting people with autism as not caring.