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Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by ot on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:57PM (#27462859)
It's always mindblowing to me that we've been able to encode such complex behaviors into instincts just by selective breeding over a few hundred generations.

Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by Sharlin on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:09PM (#27462996)
To a large extent the instincts were already there; we’ve just adapted and selected for various sub-patterns of the ancestral pack hunting behavior. Herding livestock is very similar to chasing and driving prey to where you want it.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by ChrisMarshallNY on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:32PM (#27463254)
Dogs are very smart. The wild ones, even more so.

Some of us may remember this episode of Sir David Attenborough's Planet Earth: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0036vfk

The dogs look like a trained commando squad.

This gives you an idea why everyone on the savannah is scared of a Wild Dog pack.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by btilly on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:51PM (#27463447)
Per https://www.discoverwildlife.com/animal-facts/mammals/huntin... wild dogs have an astonishing 85% success rate in making a kill. However they lose nearly half their kills to other predators such as hyenas and lions. Even so their chase to meal ratio is still better than most predators.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by samatman on Thursday June 10, 2021 @07:03PM (#27467091)
Worth pointing out (maybe?) that dogs-the-domesticated-animal are less closely related to the African wild dogs than they are to wolves and coyotes.

All of which are pack hunters and smart ones to boot. It's just that your first paragraph gives the impression to me that "wild dogs" are the same creatures as domesticated ones, just wild, when that is more true of the wolf than it is of the African wild dog. For instance, the African wild dog and the domestic dog can't interbreed.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by ChrisMarshallNY on Thursday June 10, 2021 @08:29PM (#27467853)
Maybe. There was a particular dog breed that I saw all over the place, and it looked a lot like them. Big suckers. Nasty teethies… You didn’t want one of them biting you.

In any case, I’m sure that wolf packs behave in quite a similar manner.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by samatman on Friday June 11, 2021 @01:51AM (#27469781)
Wolf packs do indeed.

There are of course dogs in Africa, and also the African wild dog: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_wild_dog

Unless you were on safari, what you saw was most likely an African breed of Canis familiaris.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday June 11, 2021 @06:58AM (#27471657)
Saw all of the above. I was born there.

There is a common dog that looks a lot like the Rhodesian Ridgeback (although a lot scruffier). I really liked them.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by sambroner on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:02PM (#27462929)
Seriously... there's nature vs nurture, but the nature of this dog is clearly to herd sheep.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by LanceH on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:15PM (#27463061)
I believe the herding instinct was already there for the purpose of hunting. The hunting and kill has been bred out of them and the herding/separating remains.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by PaulAJ on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:22PM (#27463141)
Actually its been bred out with extreme prejudice. Any sheepdog that bites a sheep gets shot. No second chances. Its a part of the job that shepherds absolutely hate because these dogs are really close and highly valued family members. But its the only way.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by Goronmon on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:29PM (#27463221)
Why is killing the dog necessary, rather than just spay/neuter and then letting it do something other than herd sheep?
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by 1123581321 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:17PM (#27464453)
The dog would need to leave the farm, and couldn’t go to another farm or a home with children. That mostly leaves rescues as the option, and they often don’t have much space, and the farmer or rancher may not be able to safely pen the dog until such space can be found or may not be able to afford feeding more dogs than needed to operate.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by alistairSH on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:26PM (#27463185)
*But its the only way."

Are these dogs unsuitable as pets (for non-farming households)?

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by dreamcompiler on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:35PM (#27463289)
Sometimes. Border collies will happily herd your children if no sheep are available. You wouldn't want one that had bitten a sheep.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by throwaway0a5e on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:37PM (#27463309)
>Are these dogs unsuitable as pets (for non-farming households)?

Does the household have any toddlers to herd?

Working dogs that are not elderly to the point where they prefer to sit on their butts all day generally make terrible pets. Ones that are bred to herd animals and have been kicked out for biting them even more so.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by ryan-allen on Friday June 11, 2021 @01:30AM (#27469653)
I think it depends if you have the time and energy to exercise them. Kelpies, Border Collies and Australian Cattle Dogs are popular pets here in Australia, you just need to exercise them.

They are very intelligent, alert and loyal. We adopted a Cattle Dog and just had to be careful around toddlers due to herding, but otherwise he's very well adjusted.

He will follow you up the stairs and nip at your heels as you go, but he never bites hard and does it for attention/affection.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by nradov on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:23PM (#27463147)
It helps that dogs have 39 pairs of chromosomes, which is more than most other mammals (humans have only 23). So it's relatively easy to selectively breed for certain desirable phenotypes without getting too many undesirable ones. Although the process isn't perfect so we still see a lot of inbreeding and genetic diseases in some purebreds.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by onychomys on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:55PM (#27463488)
Chromosome number is pretty meaningless. Indian muntjacs have just 7 chromosomes (females actually only have 6!), while their close cousins on the other side of the Himalayas have 46 [0]. Chromosomes are, after all, kind of arbitrary divisions of the genome. It's not like all your brain genes are on chromosome 1, your liver ones on c2, etc, the genome is much more spread out than that.

[0] https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/17/9/1326/994705

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by nradov on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:20PM (#27463748)
You're missing the point. A higher number of chromosomes makes it easier to do targeted selective breeding because it's less likely that a desirable characteristic will be on the same chromosome as an undesirable characteristic.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by onychomys on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:36PM (#27463938)
But linkage is a function of distance from one gene to another, so all you really care about is whether your desirable gene is physically close to your undesirable one. Having things broken up into many chromosomes helps only a little bit, if the break happens to be between the good and bad genes.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by cjensen on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:44PM (#27464056)
During reproduction, chromosomes are "mixed" together [1]. You don't get a straight copy of the parent chromosome.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosomal_crossover

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by kache_ on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:08PM (#27462993)
We're doing it to ourselves too.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by wizzwizz4 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:22PM (#27463140)
Not via selective breeding. At least, not very successfully; there have been attempts, but fortunately most eugenicists let their “I wanna hurt the Inferior People™ – err, Not-People™” rule over actually doing eugenics properly, so we merely got atrocities. And even if they had, you can't get much eugenics done in a handful of generations; I'm not aware of any eugenics campaign longer than ten generations, and even the longest of those are mostly just slow-motion genocides.

In fact, we've mostly neutered evolutionary pressures on ourselves. In ten thousand years, this might be a minor problem, but we'll probably have figured out a way of doing genetic modification without being monsters by then.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by jerf on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:11PM (#27463634)
"In fact, we've mostly neutered evolutionary pressures on ourselves."

No, we haven't. We've merely changed them, quite significantly. But there's still selection processes ongoing.

Since people tend to hear "Racism!" when this sort of thing gets said, the pressures I'm discussion includes things like being able to survive the civilization's schooling system (teen suicides don't have offspring) and the different ways of attracting and being a good mate than one would pursue in an agrarian or hunter-gather society, such as being a visibly wealthy nerd. There's a lot of things still affecting and shaping civilization through who has how many children with who and how they treat them, and I haven't got a personal list of "good" or "bad" such effects, because it's not really about "good" or "bad", they just are, no matter what labels you put on them.

Another example is the hypothesis that a significant part of why "autism" is on the rise is "assortative mating", or, to put it another way, that there are evolutionary pressures in modern society creating couples who end up essentially breeding for traits that, when overexpressed, may be called "autism". I'm not making a claim that is necessarily true, but it's an example of an evolutionary theory applying in the here & now.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by wizzwizz4 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:29PM (#27465361)
> We've merely changed them, quite significantly. But there's still selection processes ongoing.

Hence “mostly”. But evolution requires large time-scales to function; selection for arbitrarily-fluctuating criteria is practically no selection at all.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by TameAntelope on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:36PM (#27463939)
You can't breed humans because you can't isolate or consistently provide for an environment for long enough, considering how long it takes humans to mature.

Anyone trying to sell you on selective evolution is either ignorant or has an ulterior motive. There's a reason people tend to hear, "Racism!" when this sort of thing gets said -- it's not based at all in science, so what else would it be based in?

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by jerf on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:58PM (#27464248)
I'm not talking about "breeding" humans as a deliberate process; I used the term in the passive sense that evolution ever "breeds" anything. I'm saying, evolution is still functioning. Who has children and what happens to those children is not uniform simply because some illnesses that used to kill us are now survivable. That was never the only effect on our evolution anyhow, merely a particularly visible one. Many other effects are still in play. It's a myth that evolution has been shut down just because one particular mechanism has been partially blunted. Certainly the net effect has been a population explosion of late, but that's still only on a short evolutionary time frame (and we kinda already know that it can't continue much longer, re: climate change and such), but that doesn't mean every fertilized egg is surviving completely undifferentiated from any other, nor that there are any other selection processes in play.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by praptak on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:52PM (#27463453)
Getting mauled by a wild animal isn't the only kind of evolutionary pressure. As long as you die without having offspring, the pressure got you.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by wyager on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:54PM (#27463477)
> Not via selective breeding

Yes via selective breeding. Look into Landian analysis of urban centers as “IQ shredders”. Cities attract the smartest people and then tank their birth rate.

> we've mostly neutered evolutionary pressures on ourselves. In ten thousand years, this might be a minor problem

It’s going to be a problem much sooner than that. Look into Yudkowsky’s analysis of evolutionary error correction bandwidth.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by wizzwizz4 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:09PM (#27463617)
> Cities attract the smartest people and then tank their birth rate.

That's pretty simplified – but even if it wasn't, we're not going to run out of “clever genes” because it's not as simple as that. (But even if it were, the selection isn't strong enough for that to happen.)

> It’s going to be a problem much sooner than that.

If our artificial selection pressures remain the same. Which they won't. Two hundred years ago, our society's “artificial selection” was completely different; in two hundred years, it'll be completely different again.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by wyager on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:07PM (#27464334)
> the selection isn't strong enough for that to happen

Your model is busted - the Flynn effect has already reversed and intelligence is decreasing again.

You’re right that it’s “not as simple” as my one-sentence summary but my claim is directionally correct.

> it’ll be completely different again

The risk has nothing to do with what the concrete pressures are, but how much error correction bandwidth we have vs background mutation load rate.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by wizzwizz4 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:07PM (#27465127)
> Your model is busted - the Flynn effect has already reversed and intelligence is decreasing again.

Which metric are we using to measure intelligence this time? How do you know it gives meaningful results for what you're trying to use it to measure? (Please don't say IQ.) And has the study been replicated?

> The risk has nothing to do with what the concrete pressures are, but how much error correction bandwidth we have vs background mutation load rate.

But the selection effects you've described are all local and weak. Worst-case scenario – absolute worst-case scenario – the city Americans marry rural Africans and the problem goes away. But it won't get to that point.

Eliezer Yudkowsky knows a lot about philosophy of thought, and AI theory, but he hasn't put as much effort into learning about genetics. If the average geneticist isn't worried, chances are that he's made a mistake in his reasoning (or that you're misunderstood his concerns) – and I haven't heard anybody in a biological field worrying about this.

---

Wait, are you talking about his “in the absence of selection pressure, we'll get mutations that aren't filtered out”? If so… that's a hundreds of generations kind of problem, and I'm confident that stuff like IVF embryo selection (selecting against the genes for known genetic conditions) is already counteracting that effect. (Yes, this is technically eugenics, yes it could get dystopian if we're not careful, no it doesn't justify what the word “eugenics” makes you think of, no I shouldn't feel the need to write this parenthetical, yes this is the internet we're talking about.)

Transposons are likely to be a bigger issue. I read that they've started duplicating themselves more recently, and we don't really know why.

But imagine the human genome (for some unidentified reason that hasn't happened in the last thousand years) starts degrading across the entire world, so we only have a hundred years left before no human fœtuses are viable. We could just GM a human embryo to be the genetic child of modern-day humans (whose genome we've already sequenced), and we roll-back any mysterious genetic problems that far-future humans might develop.

There is an upper bound to how bad things can get, even imagining something out of a sci-fi novel, so I am highly suspicious of the motives of people who get loudly concerned about the “decline of the human genome”.

Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by TameAntelope on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:01PM (#27465062)
It's far from a conclusion that the Flynn effect has certainly reversed, for what it's worth. The 2018 study most often cited is on a small group of military aptitude tests from families in Norway and hasn't been replicated since.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by krapht on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:02PM (#27464285)
I'm pretty sure the future is going to look more like Gattaca than Idiocracy. I wouldn't bet against genetic engineering.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by wyager on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:07PM (#27464338)
This is one possible way of artificially boosting error correction capacity. I hope you are right.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by HenryKissinger on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:12PM (#27463038)
Software engineer ejected from self driving car during Sunday crash found in server farm, herding sheep?
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by zoomablemind on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:51PM (#27463444)
...browsing HN, as if nothing happened. Tons of good stuff, need to know!
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by Xpletivedeleted on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:14PM (#27463056)
... found in server room, dreaming of electric sheep?
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by goodcanadian on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:19PM (#27463101)
Patching software.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by xbar on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:21PM (#27463126)
Failing to write documentation.
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by meowface on Thursday June 10, 2021 @01:17PM (#27463088)
*cats
Re:Dog ejected from car during Sunday crash found on sheep f... by catherd on Thursday June 10, 2021 @02:38PM (#27463950)
Exited self-driving car project to make hardware and herd cats, which turns out to be the same thing.