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Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by throwanem on Thursday June 10, 2021 @08:34AM (#27459910)
Don't try to think about genomics in programming terms. At best you'll only confuse yourself; at worst, others also. Both a computer program and a genome encode information, but that's about where the similarities end.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by staticassertion on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:00AM (#27460862)
I can only use the models that I have, accurate or otherwise. I hope I'm not confusing others, I'm not pretending to be an expert in DNA.

> Both a computer program and a genome encode information, but that's about where the similarities end.

FWIW this is a very significant similarity to me.

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by throwanem on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:13AM (#27461009)
One might with equal merit say that, because I know English orthography, I can also read Linear A.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by faeyanpiraat on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:29AM (#27461856)
I think a working analogy here would be that source code (dna) gets compiled (physics/chemistry) into an executable (living organism with even more dna) which gets executed by the os (phys/chem again) to produce changes on some data (organism interacts with the environment), and on and on..

The details are of course endless and they aren’t interchangeable between the two fields, but the analogy is still there..

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by throwanem on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:20PM (#27462437)
Sure, but is it meaningful? What predictions does it enable that are sufficiently borne out by reality to make it seem likely that less easily testable predictions on the same basis may likewise prove sound?

I mean, I can as well say that chalk and cheese are alike in that both have mass, occupy space, and leave a streak behind when you rub them on something. It is a true statement, but what does it help me predict about either?

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by ABCLAW on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:37PM (#27462628)
I think the only real takeaways on the coding/biology comparison are applying base-level informatic systems ideas to explain some biological developments, and in reverse looking at biological system mechanics as inspiration for designed systems.

I don't think the 'chemistry is an OPERATING SYSTEM' level of handwaving is sufficient to glean insights, but understanding general systems-level interactome patterns of how proteins interact does help provide knowledge about how natural and designed systems can self-regulate, how they fail, how they can be structured, etc.

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by throwanem on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:40PM (#27462670)
Sure, at that level it makes sense. The trouble seems to be that in order to know that that's the level at which it makes sense, you need to know considerably more about informatics than is the default among programmers who like to indulge in this kind of speculation. Kind of a Dunning-Kruger problem, maybe; there certainly was a time when I likewise didn't know what I didn't know.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by staticassertion on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:19AM (#27461724)
I'm not sure what it is you think I'm trying to say, but much of your point seems to be "don't talk about things you don't understand", which I have no interest in abiding. I like talking about things I don't understand, and I've enjoyed the posts from you and others on the topic, even if I'll only ever be a layman.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by throwanem on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:24AM (#27461791)
Talking about things you don't understand is no problem by me! What I'm trying to point to here is the hazard of making assumptions about something one doesn't understand, and then trying to reason about the thing based on those assumptions.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by staticassertion on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:25AM (#27461803)
Oh sure, yeah I mean it's all in good fun. I wouldn't try to actually establish any serious thought other than "this is wild".
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by inigojonesguy on Thursday June 10, 2021 @09:05AM (#27460214)
>Don't try to think about genomics in programming terms.

At some point, some Newton person will figure it. It always happen.

As for now, it might be interesting to understand why exactly the analogy between genomics and programming fails. It might bring interesting insights into both fields.

So why not try to think about?

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by throwanem on Thursday June 10, 2021 @09:32AM (#27460520)
Because the only way to imagine a useful comparison between these fields can be made is to be profoundly ignorant of at least one of them.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by dekhn on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:07PM (#27464335)
I'm profoundly ignorant in neither (PhD in biophysics, software engineer for 20 years). Genomics and programming analogies are cool, but the most important thing is that understanding that molecular structures can encode information in a replicable way, and the discovery of application of entropy to data storage and transmission, demonstrates that information is a universal concept, that the genome is a data storage system, and the enzymes that operate it are operating on information, in a computational way. To me that's a pretty useful comparison.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by sooheon on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:24AM (#27461131)
Rather than assert the negative, can you state some positive facts about one or the other that makes this point clear?
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by throwanem on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:38AM (#27461279)
Software changes over spans of minutes to decades; genomes change over spans of millions of years. Software is written; genomes are not. The complexity of software is constrained by programmers' ability to comprehend it; the complexity of genomes is not. The environment in which software functions is determined by humans; the environment in which genomes function is not.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by sooheon on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:08AM (#27461607)
Those are trivial surface level differences relative to the central idea of encoding, storing, replicating, editing digital information, which interfaces with other digital and analog systems.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by throwanem on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:16AM (#27461687)
Not that there's much point to saying so, since you appear to be here for no other reason than to assert that my argument is false because you would prefer it be so, but here's another: software is digital; genomes are not.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by staticassertion on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:22AM (#27461763)
FWIW all of these differences still feel extremely surface level. I'm no expert but I certainly am, so far, aware of everything you've said with regards to how they differ - I'm kinda hoping for more, given the strong assertion you made that one can not relate the two without being fundamentally ignorant of either topic.

I also think it's somewhat ironic that you're accusing them of only being here to say "you're wrong" but that's what you've done in this thread? I only bring this up because I think we're all after the same thing here - to understand an incredibly interesting topic.

I suspect most of us are really here to learn and discuss. You seem like you have a background in the area, I'm sure we would all benefit from learning about the differences.

If it's the case that the similar is that DNA and code both encode information, and the differences are based on how they do so, it's hard to see why you think they can't be related at all. You've been relating the two.

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by throwanem on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:14PM (#27462374)
If I've given the impression that the difference is merely a question of varying encodings, then I have to agree my arguments have thus far been lacking.

The idea that a genome as expressed in nucleic acid is purely, and only, an informational medium, is fundamentally in error. It does encode information in the sequence of base pairs, this is true. But it is also a physical structure in its own right, and properties of that structure incidental to the encoded information have what recently looks to be at least as important a role in the process of transcription as the sequence itself.

There are, for example, some sequences which will cause a ribosome to transcribe the surrounding genes differently or with varying frequency, due to the physical interaction between the molecules involved. (I recently discussed this here in the context of recent research on causes of eye color; it should not be too far back in my comment history.) We also see, for example, that both viral and eukaryotic DNA can be and often are transcribed in ways that produce different proteins from the same sequence, again as a result of physical constraints affecting the interaction with the ribosome. This is one reason why "junk DNA" is a bit of a misnomer, and why we more recently see the term fall out of use in favor of "noncoding DNA" - these regions carry no information in their own right, but nonetheless can strongly affect the outcome of transcription because transcription is not only an informatic process. This isn't true of software; there is no general case in which two programs varying only in nonsyntactic ways will be evaluated differently under otherwise identical conditions - we create programming languages as we do in part to ensure that won't happen, and it's also part of the reason why we use transistors instead of vacuum tubes or relays: in order to engineer that kind of variance as much as we can out of existence. What is therefore an accidental property in software is an essential one in gene expression, and cannot be overlooked without reaching an inaccurate conception of how the latter process works.

That's just one example, and it's true that processes like these can be modeled in software to variously imperfect degrees of fidelity and that information-theoretical models can be useful in understanding some aspects of how they work. But that's not the same thing as them working similarly enough that understanding one very well suffices to reason about the other. I definitely can see how it's easy to assume otherwise! It's an assumption I shared, before my own yearlong exposure to the field at a sufficient level of detail to start to understand what I hadn't understood about it before, and considerable reading and study thereafter.

Unfortunately, I was there to provide engineering support to people doing that work, not to do it myself, and the knowledge I've derived from that experience apparently does not extend so far as producing a concise and positive statement of the fundamental difference between the two fields of study - I spent considerably more time teaching informaticists how to program, formally and otherwise, than I spent learning about bioinformatics. That leaves me able to recommend little beyond seeking out similar experience of your own, which I do recommend if the depth of your interest suffices -although I do also have to say working in academia as a nonacademic has very little else to recommend it.

I know there are some folks on HN with formal knowledge and training greatly exceeding my own, and some of whom have probably also had experience teaching the basics in an accessible way. Perhaps one of them might give a more useful answer here than I've been able to.

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by ABCLAW on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:48PM (#27462760)
>some sequences which will cause a ribosome to transcribe the surrounding genes differently

Not to be a negative nancy here, but if we're being precise, ribosomes do not transcribe. They translate.

Under the fairly reductive central dogma of biology: DNA -> RNA (Transcription) RNA -> Protein (Translation)

Transcription and translation are separate mechanics that don't occur in the same area of the cell, and both use very different complexes to mediate the rates of each in different physical environments.

I don't disagree with any of the substantive points being made, but I think the proper terminology only adds to your argument so I found it strange that it was left out.

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by throwanem on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:54PM (#27462837)
It's one of the drawbacks of being an autodidact; I pretty much always have to check to be sure I'm not confusing these two similar terms, and I didn't stop to check this time. Thanks for the correction.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by staticassertion on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:19PM (#27462418)
Thanks, this was much more interesting to read, and educational for someone with a software background, which I think kind of goes to show that discussing analogs is actually a reasonable way to approach the unknown :)
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by inigojonesguy on Thursday June 10, 2021 @04:03PM (#27465080)
Again I agree with you, because I had a similar experience. But, again, my conclusion is different than yours.

You write that we should not talk about biochemistry as computation, as far as I understand. Instead I'd say that we have not studied enough how nature does computation without programmers or even human friendly semantics.

Is still computation, involving space and physics. Too complex to efficiently simulate it (for now) but not big enough so that the emerging behaviour is simple, like for a gas.

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by dekhn on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:08PM (#27464346)
ribosomes don't transcribe genes.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by Turing_Machine on Thursday June 10, 2021 @12:19PM (#27462426)
Genomes are absolutely digital. GATC is no different from 1 and 0. It's just using a different base (pun intended).

Files on disks have end of file markers, just like the start and stop sequences in DNA. Operating systems have cron jobs (themselves digital) that control when other programs execute.

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by dekhn on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:04PM (#27464296)
You mean "DNA sequences are digital" in that base pairs map to a sequence of enumerations.

However, genomes aren't digital. They're 3D structures with a ton of attributes that are not trivially representable digitally.

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by sooheon on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:30PM (#27468695)
In the same way software code is digital but the hard drives that hold them are not?
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by shakow on Thursday June 10, 2021 @06:59PM (#27467037)
Genomes are much more than just their sequence. Their spatial organisation, their methylation, their fiolding, their packing etc, have no equivalents in a filesystem.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by sooheon on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:27PM (#27468676)
You're talking about a digital<->analog interface. Take a digitally encoded audio file, read it out and turn it into sound waves using a digital analog converter, play it out on physical speakers, record it back with a microphone, use that information to control a robotic arm with a magnet that will swipe over the physical medium... etc. They are absolutely analogous.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by sooheon on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:30PM (#27468691)
> software is digital; genomes are not

False by definition: Digital data is "information represented as a string of discrete symbols each of which can take only one of a finite number of values"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_data

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by inigojonesguy on Thursday June 10, 2021 @03:50PM (#27464896)
I agree with you here but I get to a happy conclusion. The (self- or culturally imposed) constraint on computation to be semantically meaningful for humans does not apply for genomes. But this is already useful, because it means we at least have a hint about where to dig more in programming.

There is Theory of Computation and there is Theory of Programming. Your arguments apply to TOP but not to TOC.

https://pron.github.io/posts/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk...

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by only_as_i_fall on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:49AM (#27462080)
This all seems like minor differences.

Plenty of software is neither written nor comprehensible I can assure you of that.

Like I don't think your necessarily wrong, but pointing out the literal differences between the two topics doesn't explain to me why the analogy is wrong and therefore doesn't support your argument.

It's like saying "I'm nothing like my mother; I don't even have long hair"

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by techbio on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:40AM (#27461990)
I think the environment is the confounding factor rather than programmer working life-span.

An OS is just so much simpler than dynamically constrained energetic replicators in an always and everywhere collapsing wave function.

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by techbio on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:36AM (#27461948)
I love this. It's a little black and white, but the comparison is as between video game worlds and the real world. Only enough to fool the willing eye.

I use a variation of this form as 'persons whos science and religions conflict don't know enough about either one'.

Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by burning_hamster on Thursday June 10, 2021 @09:48AM (#27460718)
As a bioinformatician, I cannot wait to use this quote on someone.
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by throwanem on Thursday June 10, 2021 @10:05AM (#27460914)
As an enthusiastically former staff engineer at a bioinformatics institute, I'm happy to have been of help! Please feel free to do so without attribution; if nothing else, it'd be a shame at this late date to have my opinions of the caste system in academia disturbed by the novel experience of receiving credit for my contributions to the work of people with letters after their names. :D
Re:DNA jumps between animal species, but no one knows how often by airhead969 on Thursday June 10, 2021 @11:08AM (#27461611)
Department chairs > PIs >~ profs > visiting profs > assistant profs >~ visiting asst profs > postdocs > grad students > employees > undergrads > high-school interns

Dedicated grant-writing staff are gold, literally and figuratively.

(I worked at a biomedical informatics shop.)