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Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by dalbasal on Monday June 07, 2021 @10:49AM (#27423270)
A long series of events, 3 years. Initially there was a backlog. Not enough trains to Poland. He went through several camps, work assignments. He never got shipped to Poland. Eventually he was freed by his brother, with the help of the Czech partisans using forged/backdated baptismal records. The Slovak subsidiary of the third reich was church oriented. Most survival stories that I know of personally involved the church, one way or another. The brother who worked tirelessly to save him had been the one on the list. He had a baby on the way, born the following morning. My grandfather volunteered to take his place, while the couple hid. The daughter became a teacher. He survived the rest of the war as a partisan. I don't know the whole story. He rarely spoke of it.

Many/most of the Lubaks (local SS) were from the area, and he'd gone to school with some of them. That's part of the story, but I don't know exactly how it fits in.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by andischo on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:29AM (#27423736)
As a German, born roughly 40 years after the war, I still cannot fathom the atrocities we Germans brought to the world at large and to so many million individuals. I grew up learning the history, I know my grandparents (as well as probably great grandparents) played their part in what happened. I am deeply sorry for what they/we did and even saying it these words just sound hollow in light of the magnitude of cruelty and injustice that happened.

I am very sorry what your grandfather had to endure and I am happy he survived. Though it doesn't change the past I will make sure that my children and grandchildren will remember what happened in order to prevent anything like that happening in our lifetimes again.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by dalbasal on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:00PM (#27424116)
He held no grudges by the time I knew him, certainly not against unborn generations. He visited in Berlin in the 70s, as a tourist, spoke german, had german friends and felt sorry for those who (like him) had their communities destroyed after the war. We were brought up to believe the remembering does matter, fwiw.

I have a lot of respect for Germany's honest portrayal and study of its past. It is a rarity, perhaps singular.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by aduitsis on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:10PM (#27426987)
Hey fellow European. Please allow me to thank you deeply for that. You cannot be held responsible for anything that some people 3 generations before yours did, but nevertheless your sense of responsibility is really truly inspiring.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by e40 on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:54PM (#27426567)
> I am very sorry what your grandfather had to endure and I am happy he survived. Though it doesn't change the past I will make sure that my children and grandchildren will remember what happened in order to prevent anything like that happening in our lifetimes again.

You might want to check out the new podcast Day X. It's about resurgence of far right extremism in Germany going on right now. Sadly, the same thing seems to be happening in my country (US).

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/19/podcasts/far-right-german...

[dead]
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by jasonshaev on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:59PM (#27424942)
Playing the "both sides" card is a hell of a take regarding WW2, especially when the article is literally about liberating Auschwitz.

Of course both sides committed atrocities in war. But only one side committed mass genocide on an industrial scale.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by shrubble on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:06PM (#27425053)
I was responding specifically to the German poster above. Crushing guilt laid on a generation that wasn't even alive at the time is unwarranted.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by morelisp on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:30PM (#27425375)
Germany has an extremely healthy attitude towards the Holocaust; it would do most western nations well to model it as regards their own historical atrocities.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by adventured on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:35PM (#27425442)
If someone initiates war, brings war to your people, threatens the destruction of your people (I mean as a nation state) - you are morally entitled to do anything required to defend your people. Anything. Without exception, and up to including killing every single person of the attacking nation if that is what is required to stop the war (which you did not initiate). Realistically you won't have to go that far, however there is no scenario where you can have total war on the scale of WW2, and civilians from the attacking side are not likely going to die in very large quantities. All of those deaths, without exception, rest on the moral back of those who began the war.

The attacking party holds the moral responsibility for what is required to stop them.

If you have to kill all the civilians supporting the industrial side of the war in order to stop the war machine supplies (whether in Nazi Germany or under the Empire of Japan), the moral responsibility rests with the party that initiated the war.

Your moral duty as a defending nation is not to trade your people's lives at a equal proportion so that you feel great about not killing too many people. It's to make the attacking party stop, capitulate, give up, surrender their efforts, and that is all. If that requires killing their civilians at a 100 to 1 ratio, that is entirely morally rational and just. The guilt of those deaths entirely rests with the attacking nation.

Which is also not the same as saying that the defending side should kill as many civilians as possible, just to do it. It means they're absolved of civilian deaths on the attacking side as a concern morally, so long as the civilian deaths serves the purpose of helping to end the war.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by w0de0 on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:19PM (#27427955)
All arguments of just war and the morality of self defense aside: this a disastrously foolish way to go about being a sentient species on a single planet.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by shrubble on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:29PM (#27426225)
Nothing that you wrote matches the Geneva conventions. Or more properly, almost everything you wrote would be in violation of the Geneva conventions.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by insane99 on Monday June 07, 2021 @08:09PM (#27429014)
France and Britain declared war on Germany, and I'm glad Germany has shown more restraint than what you are describing here.

It's absolutely wrong to attack civilians, like the allies did in numerous bombing campaigns in Germany and Japan.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by smegger001 on Monday June 07, 2021 @08:56PM (#27429398)
Like the Allies did? lets not forget the German Bombing campaign against the UK in the Battle of Britain. Bombing population centers for years until after the US joined the war. Or the Rape Nanjing by the Japaneses troops, a act so brutal the Nazis found it disturbing and inhumane.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by saiya-jin on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:53AM (#27424018)
I would suggest avoiding some sort of self-inflicted trauma from this horrible past (which might not be happening but it reads like that to me).

There is no point getting depressed from one's ancestors past - if one looks in the past far enough, there will be probably something utterly horrible that given nation/tribe/group did to somebody innocent. Basically all western european democracies fall into this category, and many, many other nations too.

Don't forget about it by any means, tech your kids as I will do, but don't put emotions into this just because your nation was the culprit. There were similar things happening to innocent civilians en masse in the past elsewhere. Genocides are not an invention of Germany or 20th century, life was often pretty horrible and violent in the past.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by distribot on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:42PM (#27424695)
I don't know if personal guilt or shame is the correct feeling either, but I also don't think OP should feel nothing.

Time and entropy (empires dissolving or population groups migrating) definitely diffuse the responsibility for a horrific act. Of which there are many in history. But this specific thing happened in living memory, was performed by an organization that still exists (a German speaking nation state, with almost the same borders as before), and by people the OP knows personally. In fact, it's a very wealthy nation that OP has gained a lot of advantage from living in. It's subjective and graduated, but I don't think it's been nearly "long" enough that the Holocaust just background noise next to all other events that have happened in human history.

Modern Germany is awesome btw. Really respect how they've reckoned with this awful time in their history.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by baybal2 on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:16AM (#27423562)
> Eventually he was freed by his brother, with the help of the Czech partisans using forged/backdated baptismal records. The Slovak subsidiary of the third reich was church oriented.

I want to remind how little people today remember who 3rd reich collaborators were.

The myth of "unwilling collaborators," and "forced to work for Germans under a gunpoint" was invented after the war by political forces who got in bed with 3rd reich, and then wanted to save their skin from pitchforks when they lost.

Those were often very mainstream, and popular political parties. Some of them exist to this day.

Well, there were even Jewish collaborators, in fact, quite plenty of them.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by AriaMinaei on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:14PM (#27424270)
> The myth of "unwilling collaborators," and "forced to work for Germans under a gunpoint" was invented after the war by political forces who got in bed with 3rd reich, and then wanted to save their skin from pitchforks when they lost.

Not to mention Ordinary Men [0], the dynamic that makes your average citizens with no ideological indoctrination become the murderers of tens of thousands of Jews, to the point they'd shoot at small children with a clear conscience. They'd even have the option not to directly take part in the murders, but still do.

Again, these were average, ordinary people. No strong party affiliation, SS membership or anything.

The fact that Christopher Browning's book was a revelation when it came out shows how little we've learned from WWII. We might have put the lid on undisguised antisemitism, but we have merely channeled its otherising roots elsewhere. Otherwise, we wouldn't find it so easy to turn a blind eye to the settler colonialism happening right now in Palestine.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Soluti...

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by gambiting on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:17PM (#27424303)
I'm not sure what you are trying to say - hopefully not that there weren't any unwilling collaborators?

Read the biography of Stanislaw Lem for instance, who grew up in Lwów(current Ukraine, back then Poland) - Nazis frequently recruited local population to both kill and then bury anyone they wanted to get rid of, under a) promise of reward b) threat of being killed themselves. But you don't need to trust the biography of one man and his experiences - we also know this because Nazis kept extensive video and photo evidence of those executions, which they would show back in the 3rd Reich as "evidence" of the barbarism of the local people in places they were occupying ("look at those stupid Poles/Ukrainians/Jews, killing each other for a scrap of food!").

"Well, there were even Jewish collaborators, in fact, quite plenty of them."

Again, because some of them were given a choice of either joining the ghetto kommando unit, or being shot there and then, along with their families. It didn't matter at all in the end of course, because they all got executed in the end anyway. Can you say with with 100% confidence that you wouldn't make the same choice in the same situation? And I do mean 100% confidence?

Polish nobelist, Wiesława Szymborska, said something about these choices people faced in WW2 that I will always remember - "we only know ourselves as much as we have been tested - and I pray that my moment of trial never comes".

I think she's absolutely right - it's easy to judge what people have done from the comfort of our homes in 2021. But I do hope that I am never put in front of the same choice. I hope I will never be tested in the same way those people were.

And I will clarify here - of course there were willing collaborators too. 100%. But your comment reads as if that wasn't the case and the "myth" of unwilling collaborators was purely made up. I see no reason to believe such a thing.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by baybal2 on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:28PM (#27424439)
> Can you say with with 100% confidence that you wouldn't make the same choice in the same situation? And I do mean 100% confidence?

10000% confidence

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by gambiting on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:32PM (#27424510)
Then all I can say is that I envy your confidence in your resolve, and I wish I could be as confident about what I would do with a gun to my head(or worse, to my children and my wife heads) as you are.

Like I said above - I hope my moment of trial never comes.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by FridayoLeary on Monday June 07, 2021 @11:45AM (#27423927)
>Well, there were even Jewish collaborators, in fact, quite plenty of them.

Yet they themselves were eventually murdered by the germans..

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by bmmayer1 on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:11PM (#27424224)
Not always. My grandfather, who was in Auschwitz, ran into, and confronted one of his own Kapos[1] on the street several years after the war.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by smegger001 on Monday June 07, 2021 @09:07PM (#27429476)
Not all of them some were even declared "Honorary Aryans" including Hitlers personal chauffeur Emil Maurice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Maurice

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by dalbasal on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:11PM (#27424228)
I wouldn't even necessarily call the SLS collaborators. They were primaries. Broadly though, yes. When we know a little about a topic, it tends to be clean, black and white stereotypes and cliches. Real history is infinitely complicated. Even (especially) individuals are not one thing or another.
Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by baybal2 on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:32PM (#27424515)
> we know a little about a topic, it tends to be clean, black and white stereotypes and cliches. Real history is infinitely complicated.

The history is simple, in this case. There were bad people, and there are bad people trying to muddy the boundary of a very clear cut difference of who was bad, and who was good.

One go kills random innocent people — he is bad.

Re:David Dushman, last surviving Auschwitz liberator, dies a... by galuggus on Monday June 07, 2021 @08:08PM (#27429011)
Thanks for sharing this story