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Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by polskibus on Monday June 07, 2021 @04:29AM (#27420323)
I see that in software business too, some psychological biases are at work here. It's usually because he used to pay $12 at some point, which he remembers better than other times, thinks it was just yesterday. Moreover, people and most of all business owners, don't like to be coerced to accept higher market price like that, if the work efficiency and quality of work did not improve. Same if you go to a shop and suddenly have to pay X% more for a toothbrush and don't really have a choice (alternative is to shop around but it costs time and money).

I think USA is still in a very good position compared to other countries as it is still seen as one of the best places to emigrate to. Other countries have it much worse and declining demographics will kill them faster.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by jokethrowaway on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:54AM (#27421082)
While the USA is a better place than many, it's far from ideal. It's nice to get a high salary for a few years.

The USA still has a lot of private capital to attract talents. But eventually it's going to run out of it or the dollar will lose value. This will be accelerated by the growth of the Chinese renminbi, especially once countries start to use it as a base currency instead of the dollar.

The USA has high salaries and relatively cheap house but it also has high taxes, high cost of healthcare and education, a good amount of social craziness (political polarisation, crime, revolts, gun shootings in school, badly handled homelessness) - I personally think you may be better off living in Europe for the time being.

Still, Europe is a time bomb waiting to explode. The demographics decline and high paid jobs moving away to countries with lower taxation will trigger a pension crisis, eventually. When Italy needs a bailout, Europe will stop being what it is.

I think in x0 years South America could be the next Europe and China could be the next USA.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by davewritescode on Monday June 07, 2021 @07:52AM (#27421460)
You're right about a lot of the social problems in the US. You're wrong about almost everything else.

It boils down to the following in the US. If you are upper middle class or above you have a very high quality of the life in the US. Healthcare is excellent, taxes are very low for the wealthy and unlike some parts of central and South America, you're free to openly enjoy your wealth here without fear of retribution. My parents live in the US and would love to retire in Spain. The tax burden alone makes that untenable.

China may end up being the dominant economic power but it's unlikely to ever reproduce what the US has in the last century. While the US has societal issues, it's not (currently) committing genocide and it's not facing a demographic time bomb with no ability to incorporate immigrants into society. For all the problems in the US, within a generation or two immigrants become Americans and participate at the highest echelons of American society. Please call me when that's the case in China.

What has made the US great is that it's been able to convince the brightest people in the world to make their homes here. From Albert Einstein to the Google founders and Elon Musk. I really don't see any of that that happening in China.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by coliveira on Monday June 07, 2021 @10:24AM (#27422969)
You're making a lot of unfounded assumptions here. Nobody in the world expected that China would be in this position 50 years ago. Very few people expected the US to be in the current situation either: a country saddled with debt, with periodic economic crisis, with a shortage of workers, making life very hard for immigrants, with an increasingly unstable political system and unable to solve racial problems that span already more than 200 years. Nowadays every serious analyst of the economic landscape sees that the future seems brighter for China than for the US. Unless the US is able to do a very serious overhaul of its current path, which it doesn't seem able or capable or doing. My opinion is that the US will become a worse Europe: with more money to spend but with a population immersed in third world problems.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by idiotsecant on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:27PM (#27424428)
I think 'racial problems' is the last thing China gets to throw stones on. When minorities in the US feel oppressed they protest, the system (slowly sometimes) improves and everything goes on. When minorities in China feel oppressed the CCP initiates a program of cultural or actual genocide until such time that the minority is dead or convinced that they are Han Chinese.

The U.S. has plenty of problems but I think moral contest with China in this area is not one of them.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by coliveira on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:47PM (#27424758)
Tell this to several millions of native Americans who where victim of genocide. Oh, wait, they're not around anymore to protest...
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by idiotsecant on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:29PM (#27426222)
True - I am excluding historical events and looking only at current state. I'm excluding the american genocide of the natives for the same reason i'm excluding historical Chinese atrocities. While these are important events and did influence the cultures and societies of their respective countries I think it's more important to examine what the current generation of living people is actually doing to understand the structure of both systems.

[edit] - I incorrectly identified China as the bad guy in a historical event where they were the victim. My bad. Point still stands.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by throwaway210222 on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:33PM (#27426272)
The Chinese were the victims in the Rape of Nanking.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by jokethrowaway on Monday June 07, 2021 @01:02PM (#27424974)
I like the way you formulate the problem. While I agree we're still not there, China is positioning itself in a way to do so.

They're actually recruiting foreign talent, they're building futuristic and liveable mega cities, they're collecting the capital needed for venture and they're growing their global VC investments.

I really don't like this development and I wished a free country would have achieved what China is doing (I think of them like the Galactic Empire in Star Wars), but I think they'll get there.

People are quick to forget the past and the majority of young people favour socialism. I'm sure they will be quick to move and work for the CCP.

I really don't have much hope left for Europe and the USA, things just keep getting worse. I hope South America will grow its economy and become the free society that can oppose China.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by mapmap on Monday June 07, 2021 @09:42AM (#27422495)
>would love to retire in Spain. The tax burden alone makes that untenable.

Could you expand on that? Does Spain heavily tax retirees?

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by jokethrowaway on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:55PM (#27424883)
Not really and they could opt for Portugal which gives 10 years tax free.

I know the US taxes his citizens on global income though, so they would be taxed like US retirees.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by xwolfi on Monday June 07, 2021 @07:32AM (#27421312)
But Europe doesnt exist in the same sense as the US does. It's not a system that can blow up, it s a group of interest that prevent French and Germans to murder each others and their neighbour.

If we can do that without the EU so be it, it's not like we culturally merged just yet.

But not saying the situation is great in each country, but I suppose if Italy dies, we can still kick it out or stop the EU as long as France and Germany find a way to ensure no more world war. This is the only goal for most of us. Every other advantage is a bonus, every flaw a necessary sacrifice.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by jokethrowaway on Monday June 07, 2021 @12:52PM (#27424827)
I see your point and I agree that individual countries would be able to live just fine and cooperate / trade with each other - eventually.

I still think that if the EUR currency were to fail all those countries will face tremendous adversities for quite some time. That could be a chance for countries like Italy and Greece to rebuild a less corrupted version of themselves, but I reckon it would take a long time.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by blfr on Monday June 07, 2021 @05:19AM (#27420563)
people and most of all business owners, don't like to be coerced to accept higher market price like that, if the work efficiency and quality of work did not improve

This is a very good observation. And smaller business owners often really don't get the increases in efficiency because they skimp on tools and aren't great managers. So it's a double whammy of increasing costs and not getting the increase of efficiency that larger companies enjoy.

Basically, they're on the receiving end of Baumol's cost disease.

And because more expensive labor forces increases in efficiency (more tech, better organization), cheap labor is by far the worst drug for the economy, covering up for stagnation and exploitation.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by tormeh on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:16AM (#27420863)
Simple price anchoring mixed with entitlement, I'd say. Not unique to business owners at all, but extra aggravating when it's an employer.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by tester34 on Monday June 07, 2021 @06:37AM (#27421000)
>I think USA is still in a very good position compared to other countries as it is still seen as one of the best places to emigrate to.

I agree, but is it the best place for pernament emigration?

I always think of US like a 1-3 year journey and then go back to PL

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by davewritescode on Monday June 07, 2021 @07:55AM (#27421484)
The US isn't a giant monolith although the rest of the world likes to treat it as such. Life on the coasts is very different than life everywhere else. It's one of the reasons the country is so polarized. We literally live in two different countries. Wealthy coastal cities and poverty stricken rural decay in the middle of the country.
Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by throwaway0a5e on Monday June 07, 2021 @08:29AM (#27421757)
There's plenty of decay on the coasts and cities doing great in middle America. You never hear about them on HN because they're not ideologically convenient in the little filter bubble we've got going on here.

The "coasts rich and good, middle America poor and backwards" narrative that we get plenty of here, on Reddit, etc. is an over-simplification at best.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by cheese_van on Monday June 07, 2021 @08:19AM (#27421666)
Yes. Think of all the different cultures you encounter on a long auto drive from Madrid to Moscow. Now drive from LA to Bangor, similarly long, if not longer.

Is it no wonder, then, we might feel like there are "different" Americas in the broad expanse of the US? And "different" Americans?

While I agree with you in part, another argument might ascribe many aspects of a perceived "polarization" to mere geography.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by theandrewbailey on Monday June 07, 2021 @09:50AM (#27422593)
> Wealthy coastal cities and poverty stricken rural decay in the middle of the country.

San Francisco and LA are infamous for large homeless populations. The inland South and West are flourishing.

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by pjmorris on Monday June 07, 2021 @02:32PM (#27426261)
I live outside Raleigh, NC, which is booming. In my exurb, I can drive less than ten minutes to find empty storefronts. I've seen those empty storefronts in every rural area I've been in on the Eastern seaboard. Cities may be booming, there are still people being left behind.

Have a listen to "We Can't Make It Here Anymore", by James McMurtry

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by granshaw on Monday June 07, 2021 @08:11AM (#27421603)
> I see that in software business too

I mean, from a business standpoint, let's face it, employees are a pain and more of a necessary evil when needed. I dream of running a lifestyle business where I don't need any full-time employees. Not many people start a business wanting to employ lots of people and be a "model employer" (even though those who do are loud about it)

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by Nkuna on Monday June 07, 2021 @10:24PM (#27429963)
Business standpoint? How are people that contribute the majority of your bottom line a necessary evil? If anything, employers are the necessary evil simply because citizens fail to sustain/govern themselves.

Less employees means less consumers which means less income for your lifestyle business. Economics 101 bud. But yeah, keep dreaming!

Re:Why are American workers becoming harder to find? by treis on Monday June 07, 2021 @10:55AM (#27423315)
There's a practical aspect of this too. Say you pay 4 drivers $17 an hour and to get the 5th you'd have to pay $19 an hour. The problem is that it's tough to pay 4 drivers $17 and one $19. They'll talk and eventually the other 4 drivers will demand $19 as well. That's why you see a lot of interview and signing bonuses but less wage increases.