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Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by listless on Friday June 04, 2021 @11:07PM (#27401735)
I got downvoted into sweet oblivion for making this exact point in another post. This whole thing is religious. In fact, it’s so religious that it’s caused me to question my own religious beliefs now that I’ve seen an actual religion assembled in front of my eyes. It’s so much like what I see in my own religion that all religion is starting to frighten me.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by lelanthran on Saturday June 05, 2021 @02:18AM (#27402680)
> In fact, it’s so religious that it’s caused me to question my own religious beliefs now that I’ve seen an actual religion assembled in front of my eyes. It’s so much like what I see in my own religion that all religion is starting to frighten me.

Don't worry about it if some members of a group you self-identify with are assholes. It's a problem when most of them do, and then you have to disassociate yourself with a different label.

Hell, I'm atheist, and I still call out other "atheists" who tell others "your god doesn't exist", or who refuse to wish others "Merry Christmas", etc.

If too many atheists are militant about others' belief system, I'm going to stop calling myself atheist and identify as something else ("Member of the religion of 'We don't care who is up there or if they exist'", although that's quite a mouthful).

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by rendall on Saturday June 05, 2021 @02:49AM (#27402817)
I have an interesting interaction with atheists, and it happens every time I discuss this online

Me: I'm an agnostic.

Atheist: So you believe there might be a god?

Me: Not at all!

Atheist: So you're an atheist! Just embrace it!

Me: You're right! The Abrahamic God almost surely [1] does not exist. I am an atheist!

Atheist: What do you mean almost surely?! What's with the equivocation?

Me: It's a mathematical term. Probability converges toward 1.

Atheist: You think there is a remote possibility Santa Claus exists, too?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_surely

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by dale_glass on Saturday June 05, 2021 @06:56AM (#27403907)
I side with the Atheist in this regard. I used to do the agnostic thing, then I realized, agnosticism seems to exist almost exclusively for religion. We don't bother with that in any other context.

Everything regarding the real world is 'almost surely'. I 'almost surely' have a job, a house, a brother and two cats. Any of those might be falsified at any time, but it's a pointless waste of time to faff about it and pedantically make it explicit how I'm pretty sure I'm still employed, but I can't exclude the possibility that maybe I'm not anymore.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by darkerside on Saturday June 05, 2021 @08:10AM (#27404229)
If half the country believes I don't have a job, and were offended when I said I did, I'd probably accommodate them with an "almost surely" to get through my morning commute a little more peacefully.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by rendall on Saturday June 05, 2021 @06:15PM (#27408848)
I hear that. But your examples fail because (e.g.) your house is not an unfalsifiable assertion about the cosmos.

I get why you would make an unqualified rejection of the concept of a Sky Daddy. In practice I do, too. We human beings have so much ahead of us, and arbitrary lifestyle demands and fevered imaginings of desert nomads dead over 2000 years don't have a place in our present, much less our future.

Of the infinite set of all possible assertions about the nature of the cosmos, Sky Daddy is almost surely wrong. But then, I believe all assertions about the nature of the cosmos are all almost surely wrong.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by wernercd on Saturday June 05, 2021 @03:04AM (#27402875)
You should place an "Only a Sith deal in absolutes" in there...

I'm a Christian and have no problem with Atheist's or what have you. There's a strong chance that there isn't a heaven/hell/72 virgins/what have you waiting "on the other side". I can still be confident in the tactile important parts (IE: Do unto others, love they neighbor, etc) without having my worldview destroyed by a "might" or a "maybe".

It amazes me when someone can say with 100% confidence that it does or doesn't exist.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by vmception on Saturday June 05, 2021 @05:20AM (#27403507)
I would primarily contend that you don't need religion for those parts you find redeeming

All societies function on the 10 commandments without them being explicitly written. Convergent evolution of the concept of society leans towards that. Lying, coveting, and laying all result in the same outcomes.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by wernercd on Saturday June 05, 2021 @05:37PM (#27408648)
"Religion" is fine... the "groups" that practices, can be not so much. I can be a Christian and follow Christian tenants without following the Dogma of the Catholic/Lutheran/Baptist/etc. (I consider myself Lutheran even if I don't agree with stuff like baptism of babies - a carry over from the Catholic Church.)

I also tend to follow JBPetersons line of thinking in that "religion" is a result of hundreds of thousands of years of "evolution". "religions" codify, as you've said, the important parts of life (Don't steal, kill, that's not your wife, etc).

There is physical truth - an apple weighs this much, an atom has these parts, etc.

And then there is Truth - don't lie. Don't steal. Don't screw your neighbor or your neighbors wife. Those aren't "true" like the weight of an atom is true... but it is true as in life is better if you live with those "rules".

Religions give a basis of reference - and yes, that comes with some of the baggage (IE: Catholic priests, holy rollers in churches getting caught in bath houses, etc). It is hard - and at times impossible - to separate the Church from the Truth at the core.

Like you said, all religions have similar cores... but there ARE differences - Jesus was a carpenter... Muhamad was a warlord. Buddha was a scholar. Their cores are very similar but there are differences in and out of the religions.

Bit of a ramble as it's hard to pack a complicated conversation in a few paragraphs.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by KozmoNau7 on Saturday June 05, 2021 @06:54AM (#27403896)
Religion does provide a convenient framework and community around those values, you could also call it enforcement, depending on how strict a given religion is.

As with any ideology, there are of course those who wish to exploit it to their own ends, which is where we get the atrocities that have happened through human history.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by rendall on Saturday June 05, 2021 @06:30PM (#27408940)
Yes, I would say it's human capacity for atrocity that's the danger, and the justification for it attaches itself to anything. In the past, that has been religion, nationality, race, even abstract concepts like justice. I believe it's naive to blame religion, even wishful thinking: if it were religion that is solely responsible for human atrocity, the answer then is simple: get rid of religion by any means necessary.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by wernercd on Saturday June 05, 2021 @07:13PM (#27409198)
Absolutely. Justification for why My Tribe can kill Your Tribe doesn't need any rational basis. All you have to do is look at the religious fervor and protests/violence/intolerance from The Woke to see that at a level more clear than it's ever been - and NONE of that is because of "religion" per-se, even if the level of energy is the same as the devoutly religious.

I hope we can survive as a species long enough to figure a solution.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by KozmoNau7 on Sunday June 06, 2021 @03:27AM (#27411427)
"The Woke" as you call them, the extremely active, extremely online and extremist faction are an absolutely miniscule number of people, who are neither violent, nor particularly intolerant. The fearmongering about them is completely overblown, this is simply another case of the American penchant for the extreme, rearing its head again. Stirring up a storm by shouting loudly and getting attention in the media is nothing new, and is necessary for bringing attention to problems that the comfortable majority have been able to ignore.

"Police are infallible!" is now "police are infallible?", thanks to activists and media attention on the very real problems faced by minorities in the US. The people who were previously sitting very comfortably and safe on top of the pile are feeling their position threatened, so of course they're afraid of the world becoming more equitable. That's just too bad for them.

The extremists will move to another cause or mellow out, but that spark of activism is needed to effect real social change.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by wernercd on Sunday June 06, 2021 @06:13AM (#27412055)
> neither violent or intolerant

You didn't notice hundreds of millions in damage in multiple states? I think the number may be in the billions... Court houses destroyed... people killed... ran over.. 4 years of violence. Flash mobs against people who go against the Woke tenants and Woke Crusaders to burn the heathens at the stake.

Overblown? Violence and destruction continues by "peaceful activists" as they spread Love and Tolerance by destroying those who disagree.

"Police are infallible" thanks to people willing to lie and destroy to get their ways. And while the violence escalates and police get more "infallible?"... people around the country are more unsafe than ever... the cities that are defunding police are seeing spikes in violence, murder, robberies, etc.

Because idiots focus on a couple bad apples and ignore the millions of good interactions and positive things police provide.

"too bad for them" I like how your basic premise is "they aren't violent or intolerant" yet it's fear and violence that are making "them" scared.

Too bad for them? Too bad for the hypocrites that use hate to fight hate and racism to fight racism and violence to support lies.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by rendall on Sunday June 06, 2021 @03:03PM (#27415413)
> "The Woke" as you call them, the extremely active, extremely online and extremist faction are an absolutely miniscule number of people, who are neither violent, nor particularly intolerant. The fearmongering about them is completely overblown

Do you think it might be possible, at all, that those who fear the woke might know some things about which you are unaware? Incidents, details or facts that, if you yourself knew them, would change your mind? Yes, no...?

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by _0ffh on Saturday June 05, 2021 @04:47AM (#27403358)
Of course there is a remote possibility Santa Claus exists, too!

(Yes, I'm also in camp "philosophically, no probability estimate can ever be exactly 0 or 1" ;-)

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by rendall on Saturday June 05, 2021 @05:37PM (#27408645)
Yep. My almost surely is philosophical. Socially, it also keeps me humble. Rather than blurting out "That's ridiculous!" when someone tells me about their ridiculous beliefs, I shrug and think . o O ("there is a non-zero chance that {insert absurdity} is true")
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by tshaddox on Saturday June 05, 2021 @04:44AM (#27403344)
I’m familiar with the mathematical term. What infinite set are you talking about?
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by TeMPOraL on Saturday June 05, 2021 @06:07AM (#27403697)
Probably a better term here would be "approaches", as in limits. 0 and 1 are not valid probabilities - absolute certainty shuts down probability math.

(This is cleanly visible if you try to transform probabilities to log-odds representation - of the extremes, one becomes undefined, and the other infinite.)

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by rendall on Saturday June 05, 2021 @05:40PM (#27408668)
The infinite set is the set of all cosmologies. An axiom of my personal metaphysics is that any assertion about the cosmos is almost surely wrong, including those informed by science. That's not a formal statement of the principle, but gets at it.

My belief is that human understanding of the cosmos is much more limited than we generally understand it to be. Relative to what (I believe) the cosmos contains, human beings have no more, and no less, capacity to understand it than any arbitrary animal. We can explain only that which is important and relevant to ourselves, and vast arenas are foreclosed even to our perception.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by dekhn on Saturday June 05, 2021 @10:29AM (#27405338)
probabalistic agnostics like me assign a pseudocount of 1 to every possible religion (with some smoothing). Any god hypothesis is considered, but extremely unlikely.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by tachyonbeam on Saturday June 05, 2021 @12:03AM (#27402058)
I think most people just have a tendency to to repeat dogma they are exposed to, based on the groups they belong in. If you join any group anywhere, be it people who practice yoga, the burning man crowd, or an online forum about programming, you'll find that there's a hierarchy, with some individuals who are highly regarded by the group, you might call them thought leaders. The individuals at the top have certain beliefs, and most people in the group will echo those beliefs as dogma everyone should believe in, and try to suppress dissenting views.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by TheOtherHobbes on Saturday June 05, 2021 @04:46AM (#27403356)
More than that, the thought leaders set the emotional tone of interaction with outsiders.

The problem is that the US is an aggressively authoritarian country, and the default tone is violent narcissistic bullying.

Unlike other authoritarian countries this isn't explicitly state sanctioned.

It's more of a continually dramatised and modelled mode of relationship which is so ingrained in so many public interactions - from school to work to "self help" to corporate culture to mainstream media to social media to large parts of elected government - that it sinks into the background as a kind of unavoidable noise.

It would be deafening if you'd never experienced it before. Because it's so common it's tuned out consciously, but still dominant unconsciously.

The "woke" part isn't the problem. It's the copying of the dominant emotional ideology that leads to both left and right extremism, and also justifies excess corporate power and other horrors.

It's all part of the same issue, but both left and right are only looking at small parts of it - and getting angry about those while missing the underlying issue.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by Izkata on Saturday June 05, 2021 @01:50AM (#27402570)
> I think most people just have a tendency to to repeat dogma they are exposed to, based on the groups they belong in.

This realization is basically how the "NPC" meme was born. It predated the "no inner voice" study, that's just how most people seem to have come across the idea because the study half-jokingly caused a "wait a minute, we were right?" moment.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by koonsolo on Saturday June 05, 2021 @12:49AM (#27402300)
The thing with belief is that you are 100% sure about something you cannot be sure about.

If you ask a religious person "what do you think is the chance that god exists?". A rational person will never say 100%, because objectively you cannot be 100% sure.

But a religious person is wired in a way were they are unable to admit this fact. It is a lie people tell themselves because somehow they think it benefits them.

Now whether it really benefits them or not, I'm not sure. But I would think nothing can beat the objective truth, and that truth might include probabilities.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by vlunkr on Saturday June 05, 2021 @01:16AM (#27402428)
This is an egregious over simplification of religious belief. I think most religious people are absolutely not 100% sure. That's why faith is such a big topic, and why philosophers and theologians have written about faith, the existence of god, whether it can be proven, etc. for centuries.

Besides, aren't all your actions based on beliefs that are are less than 100% certain? I don't know that the line of code I'm writing is going to compile, or that the company I'm working for isn't going to go under tomorrow, or that the relationships I'm investing time into are going to last forever, but I'm certain enough that I proceed with them. Believing in God isn't so different.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by loopz on Saturday June 05, 2021 @04:13AM (#27403216)
Faith is a powerful force to drive you along, even among uncertainty and strife.

Beliefs are a house of cards.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by listless on Sunday June 06, 2021 @10:05AM (#27413240)
This is true and one of the reasons I remain religious. Faith in an ultimate resolution allows you to persevere the suffering you will invariably go through. The loss you will certainly experience. It seems to me that without faith in something, Nihilism creeps in and that’s a dark place to live your short days.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by nyokodo on Saturday June 05, 2021 @01:30AM (#27402487)
> But a religious person is wired in a way were they are unable to admit this fact.

This religious person can. I am not 100% on anything via reason, I just don’t think reason is the only way of knowing. I can’t be certain that my dad loves me via reason but I know he loves me via human faith because I know my father, I don’t simply know about him. Authentic Christian faith in God is similar to that.

Thankfully not all non-religious people are wired to make such sophomoric sweeping generalizations as you.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by TheOtherHobbes on Saturday June 05, 2021 @05:11AM (#27403468)
It's not at all unusual for people to start off comfortable with their level of faith in others, and then discover their faith was misplaced.

I gave up on Christians specifically when I discovered that Christians all believe different things. I would literally ask in chat rooms for a group to define one thing they all agreed on, and then watch as fights broke out - because when pushed they all disagreed violently on core ethics and dogma, and yet they also believed they were right and other people with different views "Weren't real Christians."

It turns out there is no real content to that kind of religion. It's all meta-justification for a person's existing moral leanings, and meta-interpretation of a "sacred text" which is broad enough to rationalise pretty much anything, including some appalling and terrible things. (History has plenty to say about that.)

The only true common belief is that religious self-justification is a valid and respectable process. That was the one thing they had in common.

Specifics and details were wildly variable window dressing, and heavily customised to personal taste.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by nyokodo on Saturday June 05, 2021 @01:03PM (#27406709)
> I would literally ask in chat rooms for a group to define one thing they all agreed on, and then watch as fights broke out > It's all meta-justification for a person's existing moral leanings

There is a vibrant and ancient school of Christian moral teaching that still permeates to the core of western law and governance. Talking to strangers in chatrooms is not a serious confrontation of this reality nor any basis for dismissing it all.

> interpretation of a "sacred text" which is broad enough to rationalise pretty much anything, including some appalling and terrible things. (History has plenty to say about that.)

Interestingly, those Christians who did appalling things used the same cherry picking strategy with Scripture that you use with history.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by koonsolo on Sunday June 06, 2021 @04:29AM (#27411669)
I came to the same conclusion with my experience of religious people.

Good people will justify their deeds through their religion, and bad people will justify their deeds through religion.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by koonsolo on Sunday June 06, 2021 @04:19AM (#27411626)
> This religious person can.

So I'm guessing you are Christian because you were raised in an environment like that.

If you were raised in Pakistan, you would have been a Muslim.

So how much chance would you give each religion to be the correct one? Because they all contradict each other, and believing in one basically states that the other can't be true.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism & others.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by BrandonM on Saturday June 05, 2021 @01:11AM (#27402405)
Not all religions are centered around a 100% belief in God. That assumption seems to be a very common mistake among atheists and agnostics who are most familiar with Christianity.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by rriepe on Saturday June 05, 2021 @01:57AM (#27402604)
I like the phrase "life stance" for this idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_stance
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by rriepe on Saturday June 05, 2021 @01:55AM (#27402589)
I used to be like this. I regret it. I made a distinction that didn't exist-- that there were non-religious people and religious people.

Naturally, I was one of the non-religious people and therefore better. Instead of defining what I believed in, I could just attack the things I didn't believe in. It was easy. I never had to play defense. I might not win every time but I could never lose. I could rattle cages but had no cage of my own.

The way you're describing yourself is how everyone thinks. Faith and doubt are two sides of the same coin. I consider faith worthless without doubt.

Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by ojbyrne on Saturday June 05, 2021 @01:10AM (#27402402)
So if I say 0%, is that irrational? I mean I’m not 0% sure, but I am to many many decimal places. So what if somebody is religious in the same way? They’re not 100% sure, but they understand significant digits, and just round up.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by koonsolo on Sunday June 06, 2021 @04:22AM (#27411639)
With all the religions in the world, who each contradict each other, there is only a small chance that you were raised in the correct one.
Re:Medium sees employee exits after CEO publishes ‘culture m... by alessivs on Saturday June 05, 2021 @04:02AM (#27403162)
George Steiner discussed this in «The Secular Messiahs» (part of «Nostalgia for the Absolute»):

> [They]...are not only attempts to fill the emptiness left by the decay of Christian theology and Christian dogma. They are themselves a kind of substitute theology. They are systems of belief and argument which may be savagely antireligious (...) but whose structure, whose aspirations, whose claims on the believer, are profoundly religious in strategy and in effect.

> (...) Those great gestures of imagination, which have tried to replace religion in the West, and Christianity in particular, are very much like the churches, like the theology, they want to replace.

> The convinced Marxist, the practising psychoanalyst, the structural anthropologist, will be outraged at the thought that his beliefs, that his analyses of the human situation, are mythologies and allegoric constructs directly derivative from the religious world-image which he has sought to replace. He will be furious at that idea. And his rage has its justification.