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Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by phkahler on Thursday June 03, 2021 @04:31PM (#27386904)
The problem with fully remote work is that once you accept that a job can be done from anywhere, you have to compete on a global level. It can be done from India, China, Pakistan, or any other place where they have smart people willing to work for less than you! So don't get too excited about it ;-)
Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by joecot on Thursday June 03, 2021 @05:09PM (#27387347)
One of the reasons I went with a 99% remote job. I'm an hour from the office. There's nothing I can't do from home a vast majority of the time, but the proximity to the office means that when there is value in me showing up, I can, on very short notice. They definitely paid me more for that ability, even though they were fine with me only planning on coming in maybe once a quarter. And I like that I'll still be getting some face time.

Relatedly, after my previous job tried to force everyone back in the office a majority of the time, and I gave them my notice after accepting an offer a week later, my former boss was suddenly very willing to discuss working from home 3 days a week if it meant I stayed. They can do it, they know remote work has been fine for a year+, they just don't want to. If you're an employer, make your peace with a hybrid or remote environment and make the accommodations clear now, not after all your people have started interviewing places that will. No matter what you're paying your tech folks, someone else will pay them more right now, and then it'll be too late.

Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by not_jd_salinger on Thursday June 03, 2021 @04:47PM (#27387075)
People have been making this threat for decades now but here is the thing: you always get what you pay for.

High quality developers from these countries can get paid surprisingly well. The ones that are insanely cheap tend to also do poor work.

The reason we still plenty of work being outsourced is because if you have a really high tolerance for low quality work, the lower end is much cheaper than you can get in the US.

You are also wildly underestimating some of the tech markets. I know plenty of people that are heading back to China because they are being offered amazing positions over there.

Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by pinkybanana on Thursday June 03, 2021 @05:13PM (#27387394)
> you always get what you pay for.

This isn't true. Yeah statistically maybe. In practice if you are willing to endure some hassle you can save a lot of money by using offshore freelancerds/contractors. However it requires lots of patience and also depends on the field.

Most people hire locals because they want to feel comfortable. It is just nicer to communicate with someone from the same culture, and it is easier to trust that guy.

Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by machinebun on Thursday June 03, 2021 @05:36PM (#27387657)
Well, you could still arbitrage expenses. In SF a highly paid developer is paying $4-5K a month on rent and another $1-2K on food - the same developer living in India would probably be paying 1/10th of that sum for the same expenses. Plus taxes and such. I'm not sure what the delta really comes out to though.
Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by dcolkitt on Thursday June 03, 2021 @05:32PM (#27387626)
> It can be done from India, China, Pakistan, or any other place where they have smart people

Software engineers in these countries are significantly less competent than their American counterparts. This has been documented by academic literature.[1] That still doesn't mean that there aren't great engineers in Pakistan, but what makes you think you have the ability to recruit, interview, hire and retain the top decile of engineer in Pakistan?

Are you able to discriminate between a great Pakistani engineer's resume looks compared to an average one? Do you have a network of contacts in Pakistan to make recommendations? Will you be able to speak Urdu when you check their references? Does your company have any reputation or prestige in Pakistan? Why would a highly in-demand Pakistani engineer be interested in working for a company without any career progression, who's only outsourcing work because it's cheap?

It's not like this is the first time in history that companies have realized they can offshore programmers to low-cost markets. It's literally been a constant theme in IT management circles for fifty years. It's not like they needed WFH to make it happen. It really doesn't cost much to open an office in Bangalore. Cassandras have been predicting the collapse of the American software market for decades, yet engineer compensation just keeps growing. If anything the economics are far less compelling than they were 20 years ago, since the wage differential is much smaller. If offshoring didn't work in 1995, there's no reason to expect it to work in 2021.

[1]https://www.pnas.org/content/116/14/6732

Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by hinkley on Thursday June 03, 2021 @08:20PM (#27389048)
I hesitate to earmark this as competence, but what I see again and again is that my colleagues in Asia (India, China, Russia on one occasion) have a much higher tolerance for pain than the majority of their North American and Western European contemporaries.

This is not a good thing. The dominant form of 'bullshit' in code is pointlessly self-inflicted pain, and so people who don't hit the 'enough is enough' point are wallowing in bullshit code most of the time, and writing more bullshit the rest of the time. We politely call this 'accidental complexity' to water it down and not point fingers. It wasn't an accident. It was deliberate, or thoughtless.

Anyone who hits the 'enough' point now starts to consider high threshold people as mess-makers. As being less than 1x employees (worst case, -x employees). Doing that kind of janitorial work for long is a quick road to burnout. It's taking and challenging to explain to people that 'okay' is not universal and just because you think something is 'okay' doesn't mean anyone else does and as you work on a team you need to adjust your levels to match expectations.

Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by thunderbong on Thursday June 03, 2021 @06:37PM (#27388334)
I think you're vastly underestimating the amount of effort involved in getting something done by someone locally to someone remote.

Time zone is the first hurdle. Although, in my opinion, this can still be overcome in a relative short period of time.

The second hurdle is familiarity with work culture and style. For a person who's worked already in your office, knows the system, knows all the procedures, knows the nooks an crannies of how all the softwares behave, who to call in case of issues, how to resolve them. All these aspects add to a significant amount of non-quantifiable knowledge which lots of organizations don't consider while outsourcing initially.

The third is process. Most organizations have their processes worked out over time. And this is rarely, if ever, documented. Even for people coming to office, there's a certain amount of time till they get familiar with this.

However, the biggest challenge is communication. This means everything - grammar, vocabulary, diction, accent, familiarity with jargon, parts of speech, colloquialisms, everything. To make a requirement understood itself is a challenge. Asking questions about that requirement when faced with a roadblock, is again a bottleneck.

As an Indian, who's worked in most of the English speaking countries, and now working from India, I can just humbly say this - never outsource to cut costs. This will bite you hard in the short run. Only if you have processes set, softwares used correctly, procedures documented, should you look into outsourcing. And that too it should be for reasons other than purely financial. As an example, having remote workers across time zones helps in maintaining support for your global customers better. Similarly, time zone differences can be used to your advantage. Finally, interacting with different cultures can only improve your organization's awareness, maturity, communication and global reach.

Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by tdeck on Thursday June 03, 2021 @06:40PM (#27388362)
Since my dad ran a software company, I've been hearing these worries about jobs moving to India etc... for most of my life. I worried about it 20 years ago, worried about it 15 years ago, and I don't worry about it anymore. As other commenters have said, not only has the pay gap for skilled engineers diminished significantly over that time, but there are other significant barriers to offshoring.
Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by duckfang on Thursday June 03, 2021 @05:15PM (#27387434)
But that's always been true. And companies are going to do that if they can, regardless if we WfH or WfW. More than a few of us have seen the mass firings, and training some barely-comprehensible foreign workers, whom wreck the place, and then the company calls and begs us to come back.

That's literally the same argument about the "Fight for $15" - the argument is 'yer gonna get automated'. That's going to happen no matter what.

Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by mdoms on Thursday June 03, 2021 @04:46PM (#27387066)
There are still barriers to truly global labour - time zones, language barriers, complicated tax systems etc. I'm in New Zealand where there's little overlap in working hour time zones with most major markets.
Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by narrator on Thursday June 03, 2021 @04:36PM (#27386963)
This is why it's good to be a lawyer. It's one of the last remaining guilds of knowledge workers with any power. It's literally illegal to have someone from wherever do certain tasks if they are not properly licensed.
Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by ishjoh on Thursday June 03, 2021 @05:06PM (#27387323)
There are Indian universities that specialize in US law and train their students in US law. Law firms that have those lawyers work overnight on items that in the past were given to new grads. Experienced lawyers then review those documents, fix any issues, and put their signature on the document.

You could argue that there still has to be a US lawyer in the loop, but that's still true of software projects as well, that there is one Sr. software person overseeing the outsourced team.

Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by sxp on Thursday June 03, 2021 @05:02PM (#27387265)
It's not /that/ good. Due to the high supply of lawyers, the compensation is heavily bimodal: https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/
Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by edmundsauto on Thursday June 03, 2021 @07:02PM (#27388546)
That's one good reason to be a lawyer. However, if you speak with actual attorneys, they all have a hundred reasons to not become a lawyer. I have yet to find one that recommends it as a career path.
Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by narrator on Thursday June 03, 2021 @07:25PM (#27388717)
I know a patent lawyer and a divorce lawyer who really like their work. The patent lawyer is an ex-engineer and likes the technology. The divorce lawyer is a funny jerky guy and loves all the drama. It's not for everyone though.

If you want a laugh about why not to be a lawyer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs-UEqJ85KE

Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by ferdowsi on Thursday June 03, 2021 @04:55PM (#27387183)
Plenty of typical lawyer work is ripe for automation.
Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by pinkybanana on Thursday June 03, 2021 @04:57PM (#27387209)
Lawyers do a lot of work where their licence is not really needed.
Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by pochamago on Thursday June 03, 2021 @07:53PM (#27388881)
I'm not sure I'd classify licensed professions as rare, frankly most US states have an overabundance of occupational licensing in my view.
Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by dred_prte_rbrts on Thursday June 03, 2021 @04:53PM (#27387152)
I would point you at board certified doctors.
Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by narrator on Thursday June 03, 2021 @05:40PM (#27387713)
Their work isn't remote though.
Re:Why workers are calling BS on leaders about returning to ... by AJ007 on Thursday June 03, 2021 @04:37PM (#27386986)
In the immediate term, instead of competing with people in a 60 square mile radius, you have to compete against the rest of the country. That’s great if you are really good at what you do. If you aren’t, it isn’t.

Also remote workers are easier to automate because employers know precisely what they are doing.