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Re:Safari tries to fill username by thaumasiotes on Friday May 28, 2021 @07:04AM (#27313928)
> TOTP is fundamentally different to a password, as the stored "password" (by which I presume you mean the key) is never transmitted anywhere.

Are you familiar with SRP?

TOTP has all of the properties of passwords, and no properties that passwords don't have. That makes it... a password.

Re:Safari tries to fill username by lucideer on Friday May 28, 2021 @07:12AM (#27313987)
I guess you can argue the definition of the word "password"; language is fluid, especially English.

I would say SRP is strictly a misnomer (though it's a useful conflation). Generally speaking password is a value provided for authentication (if it's no longer being "provided", as in SRP, it's something different... but I understand using a familiar word for that something different is helpful when communicating).

Either way, in saying TOTP was "just a password", the point you were trying to make was that TOTP is "no different than and therefore no better than a 2nd traditional password". The fact it's not transmitted makes it very different to, and better than, a traditional password. So whatever you want to define the definition as, the point stands.

> and no properties that passwords don't have

It has 1 property that passwords don't have: it is not transmitted!

Re:Safari tries to fill username by batch12 on Friday May 28, 2021 @07:38AM (#27314148)
There are authentication mechanisms that rely on passwords but work by not transmitting the password too. One example is kerberos.

TOTP is a password. The fact that it is a password doesn't matter though since it is something you have (and can't know) which augments the something you know. This satisfies the intent of MFA.

Re:Safari tries to fill username by KMag on Friday May 28, 2021 @08:15AM (#27314456)
> One example is kerberos.

It kills me that most enterprise environments use Kerberos via Active Directory, LDAP, or NIS. So, your workstation probably has Kerberos tickets sitting on it, which would allow very light weight 2-way authentication and encryption of internal flows.

TLS client certificates and TLS-everywhere would be another good option, but it's particularly frustrating that the Kerberos TGTs are already on the client machines. The key management part is already solved in the Kerberos case.

Kerberos is even potentially resistant to quantum cracking. (Grover's quantum search algorithm effectively halves the key size of ideal symmetric ciphers, so you'd want 256-bit keys.) Forward secrecy is an issue, but there are proposals to incorporate DH key exchange in the pre-auth to give imperfect forward secrecy. A post-quantum key agreement protocol, like RLWE would be fairly strait forward to incorporate, with standardization being the main hurdle.

Re:Safari tries to fill username by toyg on Friday May 28, 2021 @08:39AM (#27314669)
I agree Kerberos is somewhat under-used, but man isn't it half a pain to set up integrations with...

Part of the problem is that it's "enterprise" tech, which means all sorts of "enterprise" middleware claims to support it with some half-assed concoction that worked on the presales demo environment once, back in 2001, and nobody else has touched since. And it's also old and pretty obscure, with documentation lost to the fog of time, and very few people who remember how it was supposed to work - a bit like MS DCOM...

Re:Safari tries to fill username by Aeolun on Friday May 28, 2021 @07:42AM (#27314177)
Aside from the fact that I never transmit the actual password. So the password that you’d potentially get only works for you for 30 seconds.

Slight detail that’s of course completely irrelevant.

Re:Safari tries to fill username by thaumasiotes on Friday May 28, 2021 @07:52AM (#27314253)
> Aside from the fact that I never transmit the actual password.

You realize that, out of the many comments I've made in this tree, the one you responded to was the one that said

> Are you familiar with SRP?

There are more ways of compromising someone's information than capturing it in transit. If you give me your phone, I can read your TOTP seeds straight out of Google Authenticator.

Re:Safari tries to fill username by batch12 on Friday May 28, 2021 @07:31AM (#27314101)
Yeah, TOTP is a password. Hell, it is in the name. One property it has that differs from classic passwords is the authentication factor. For TOTP, it changes from something you know you something you have. However, lots of passwords are now randomly generated and are no longer "something you know" either.
Re:Safari tries to fill username by lucideer on Friday May 28, 2021 @07:49AM (#27314222)
> it is in the name

The "Password" named in "Time-based One Time Password" is the temporary generated value you transmit. It's not what's stored on the TOTP device, so in the context of this discussion, that temp value isn't what the gp was referring to.

Re:Safari tries to fill username by thaumasiotes on Friday May 28, 2021 @07:50AM (#27314229)
> Yeah, TOTP is a password. Hell, it is in the name.

Careful; "one-time password" is in the name, and it certainly isn't that. Your TOTP seed stays valid forever.