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Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by psychomugs on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @01:17AM (#27272850)
It was my last day in SF after a semester-long internship, and I decided to take photos around downtown. I was passing through Union Square on my way home when I saw a guy weaving through traffic, with two people chasing after him and yelling at him to give something back.

I instinctively started booking it after him, caught up to him in the middle of a food truck area, grabbed him by his hoodie collar, and pinned him down while I waited for the pursuers to catch up. It turns out he ran out of their shoe store with a pair that he was trying on. While I was holding him down, I realized that I still had my camera in my hand, and I instinctively took photos during the whole ordeal [1].

Between this episode and others I’ve seen or heard about (buckets of literal shit in the streets, friends-of-friends getting mugged in broad daylight, sometimes right outside their apartments), SF is really low on the list of places I want to live in.

[1] https://www.instagram.com/p/BrtlSaPAMNG/

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by dude187 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @01:45AM (#27273145)
Doing god's work! It's crazy that people can be so deluded to think that actually having enforcement against such victimization is somehow negative.
Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by chrischen on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @01:26AM (#27272950)
Nobody comes to live in SF because of those things you experienced. They come for the sweet VC money, jobs at Facebook and Google. And likewise, criminals come because that money exists there too.
Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by threwawasy1228 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @01:44AM (#27273126)
There is VC money in NYC, Chicago, Boston, and Seattle, and I can work at Google or Facebook from most of those cities. I will never move to SF in the condition it is in, and I'm sure many other people feel the same. These opportunities exist elsewhere.
Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by chrischen on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:06AM (#27273301)
So... why did the people move to SF? To step in poop? Those jobs exist elsewhere, but not at the numbers they exist at in SF and the surrounding area. Most young people who move to The Bay Area would then end up moving to SF because it's the closest "real" city.
Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by threwawasy1228 on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:06AM (#27274189)
I'm a "young person" who chose not to move to the Bay. The market will eventually even out based on the policy and perception of a given city on generational-timescales. SF didn't become tech/VC capital overnight, and it won't decline over night either. It will decline one junior or midlevel dev at a time going to one of the cities I mentioned or Austin/Miami/etc.
Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by chrischen on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @07:16PM (#27297331)
Except that jobs don't go where young people are... Young people go where jobs are, and they tend to want to live in cities as well. For example, see the TV show Friends. As bachelors and bachelorettes, they lived in the city for dating, social life, etc, but by the finale they moved out of the city to settle down.
Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by psychomugs on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @11:42PM (#27299141)
Actually, research shows that this effect is mixed, and even in support of "smart and creative" jobs following highly educated people [1,2]. Granted, this is in Europe and I don't see any mention of age demographics in a light skim of the paper, but I'd take this over Friends (frankly, I'd take many things over Friends).

[1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00343404.2016.1...

"Distinguishing between the smart sector and the main sector, the data support jobs follow people and not people follow jobs (as suggested by the aggregate analysis). In the smart sector, the effect appears to be large. In the main sector, the effect seems to be smaller and less precisely identified."

[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-30/do-jobs-f... - article version summarizing the paper.

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by chrischen on Thursday May 27, 2021 @06:31PM (#27309402)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-28/u-s-mille...

You don't have to trust Friends. You can just Google this yourself or trust your instincts. But barring that, it's well established that younger people tend towards cities.

As for jobs following people or not, your article points out that it's a chicken and egg thing, and that high talent people may attract jobs, but they also beget more jobs.

In The Bay Area, throw in startup culture and VC/Angel funding and you add more fuel to the fire.

YC's stated reason for moving from Boston to Mountain View was actually because the investors were in CA.

You could say that initially maybe it was talent from the top local schools (Berkeley, Stanford), and semiconductor research, that attracted the VCs here. Then it created jobs from companies seeking those VCs, but today, in the current state, people are coming here for the jobs. It's a feedback loop but I wouldn't put most people's ambitions for moving to SF being the quality of life offered in the city itself.

Rather than arguing aimlessly in this thread I'll rephrase threwawasy1228's thesis and my rebuttal: San Francisco is going to be in decline because of lowering quality of life (poop on streets, crime, etc) repelling some talent.

My rebuttal: These were never the reasons attracting people to come to SF in the first place. It was the availability of jobs, opportunities, and VC money and startup networking. If these things disappear, perhaps due to remote work opportunities, then yes SF would tend to decline due to the loss of local advantages. Otherwise, as long as these attractors exist it's going to keep the area a hot-spot. Of course, SF's rent isn't going to rise forever. Eventually it will reach equilibrium where enough people like threwawasy1228 will decide it's not worth the job/opportunity and this cooling down will be hailed as the "end" or "decline" of SF.

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by sneak on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @01:48AM (#27273166)
What you did was illegal.

Additionally, that's a misuse of "instinctive".

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by psychomugs on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:16AM (#27273365)
I know my photographic rights; I was in public on public property photographing someone else on public property, which is legal in the US [1]. The only illegal happening here was theft on the part of the thief. I realize that you’re probably not based here if you think otherwise.

I’m a photographer and a distance runner and I’m good enough at both to have made money off of them. Both reactions were instinctive.

[1] https://www.acludc.org/en/know-your-rights/know-your-rights-...

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by dragonwriter on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:29AM (#27273484)
> I know my photographic rights

Taking the photos was probably not illegal.

Citizen’s arrest in California is legal for a misdemeanor (e.g., shoplifting as in your case) only when the arrestee is both factually guilty and committed the crime in the arresting person’s presence; whether or not the first part is true, by your description the second is not and you committed both battery and false imprisonment, possibly felony (by violence or menace) in the latter case.

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by TheAdamAndChe on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @07:45AM (#27275651)
Thankfully, it sounds like the officers involved didn't apply such unusual laws in order to irreversibly damage someone's life when they were stopping a thief. Punishing people for trying to do good things while ignoring thieves and vandalizers would be a fantastic way to cause a breakdown in civil society and a dissolution of trust in the law and government.
Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by psychomugs on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @09:04AM (#27276290)
There were no officers involved, the guy just left while taunting the victims that he’d come back to their store another day.
Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by sneak on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:17AM (#27273376)
> grabbed him by his hoodie collar, and pinned him down

I was referring to the battery.

> I’m a photographer and a distance runner and I’m good enough at both to have made money off of them. Both reactions were instinctive.

The experiences and training you have had post-birth have no bearing on your innate human instinctual responses, which are shared in common with all members of your species, including the ones that aren't runners or photographers. It is likely you meant "subconscious" or perhaps "automatic".

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by psychomugs on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:35AM (#27273547)
Citizen’s arrest is not illegal in CA: https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/837/ Considering the guy was almost a foot taller than me, I was pinning him down with only a fraction of his body weight.

My usage of instinct, something that I did subconsciously and without thinking, is covered under several dictionary definitions and examples [1-3].

[1] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/insti... [2] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/instinct [3] https://www.dictionary.com/browse/instinct

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by ALittleLight on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:25AM (#27273439)
Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force.

1 - https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/837/#3.1

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by dragonwriter on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:33AM (#27273530)
> Citizens in California are allowed to make a citizen's arrest including use of reasonable force.

For a misdemeanor (as the shoplifting described in this case appears to be), only if the arrested party actually committed the offense and it occurred in the arresting party’s presence (for a felony, the terms are somewhat looser.)

As the description clearly indicates that the offense did not occur in the poster’s presence and he wasn’t even aware of the offense until after using force to restrain his victim, he committed both battery and false imprisonment by violence, the latter of which is a felony offense, and the former is at a minimum a violent misdemeanor.

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by psychomugs on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:53AM (#27273690)
I judged the given probability P(crime | guy being chased in the streets & SF) as much higher than chance, which is what led me to yield to instinct.

I realize that I was over my head considering the guy was much bigger than me and I had no way of knowing if he was armed or not, but I sleep better at night knowing I did what I could to act as a decent human being.

[dead]
Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by psychomugs on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @09:08AM (#27276324)
Because I was raised to do what I can to help people in need, who was very obviously not the guy running away, smiling, from two people who looked very distraught.

> manufactured using slave labor.

You’re grasping here. Nice bait.

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by sig-reduction on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @09:21AM (#27276443)
Check out this analysis of American action movies. It may change the way you see Batman and other characters that may have influenced your thinking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOMiAeRwpPA

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by yeetawayhn on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @11:08PM (#27285751)
Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by ALittleLight on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:43AM (#27273613)
What do the courts mean by "in the presence?" Although they have not had occasion to elaborate much, they have said that the crime must have been "apparent to the senses," but that this requirement should be interpreted "liberally." Thus, it will be satisfied if the citizen was aware of circumstances from which he could reasonably infer that a crime was occurring in his presence

- https://le.alcoda.org/publications/files/CITIZENSARREST.pdf

I think this would qualify as committing the crime "in the presence" of the above commenter. Running away is part of the theft and that was done in the presence of the commenter.

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by dragonwriter on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @02:48AM (#27273652)
> What do the courts mean by "in the presence?"

Even the most liberal definition doesn’t include the arrestor being only aware of the crime after the arrest (even the looser felony citizen arrest rules require both knowledge of the offense and reasonable belief that the arrestee committed it, as well as, as in the misdemeanor case, actual guilt.)

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by ALittleLight on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @03:25AM (#27273899)
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I think it is perfectly obvious that if you witness theft taking place then the crime is taking place "in your presence".
Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by rsync on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @11:08AM (#27277813)
"I was referring to the battery."

Fuck off.

Home (or storefront) invasion is a violent act. Theft is a violent act. We (all of us) have a duty to respond - with violence if necessary.

We need more good people like (psychomugs) in San Francisco and he deserves our thanks.

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by sneak on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @04:11PM (#27281968)
Petty theft is not violence; violence is crime against a person's body. The only violence that happened here was the guy attacking the thief.

In almost all cases, escalating a relatively minor crime into physical violence against a human being is the wrong move, and needlessly increases the risk in a situation.

Grab the wrong person by accident? In a lot of states that might endanger your own life if the person decides to defend themselves.

Escalating to violence over simple objects (property) is to have priorities out of whack.

PS: be nice. I will not fuck off.

Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by psychomugs on Wednesday May 26, 2021 @12:20AM (#27286290)
Play armchair critic with your hypothetical scenarios all you want, but the objective outcome of this ordeal was preventing a bad actor from getting away with a legally and morally unjust act. The only thing violated was his pride by getting caught by someone a full head shorter and probably >50lbs lighter than him.
Re:I Was Robbed in San Francisco While the Cameras Rolled by stjohnswarts on Tuesday May 25, 2021 @10:10AM (#27276948)
Instinct has more meanings than just the strict biological one that you are referencing. Perhaps you need a grammar class and not just biology classes?