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Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by rachofsunshine on Sunday May 23, 2021 @03:26PM (#27257777)
Hi folks - I'm a PM at Triplebyte who recently inherited this part of our site.

You're absolutely right that this is a dark pattern, but it's not a current one - it's the echo of the dark pattern we screwed up on last year. If you hid your profile at the time, prior to last year's thread and our response to it, the maximum duration was one year (and yes, this was a really terrible idea among the other really-terrible-ideas that were called out at the time). But we changed that last year during our internal response. Hiding your profile indefinitely on our current site does in fact hide it indefinitely, and has ever since it was added as an option. (see https://imgur.com/n5e4CMB - and just to be clear this is my personal prod-testing account, not an actual person whose profile I screenshotted)

What happened here is that if you had hidden your profile just before we added the indefinite option, you were caught by the old dark pattern, which only let you hide it for up to a year. (And so, a year later, we're correctly informing you that it is now visible again.) We fixed the site at the time so that no one would newly be caught in this pattern, but what we failed to do was retroactively change the setting for people who'd selected 'one year' prior to that point.

This was a genuine oversight, and we'll fix it. I need to speak to our engineering team to make sure we can actually do so, but my immediate plan is to effectively just make the indefinite hiding retroactive by assuming anyone who set it to the max last year wanted that. In any case, it will get fixed one way or another - I was as pissed as anyone here by last year's events and have no intention of leaving y'all high and dry.

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by mgsouth on Sunday May 23, 2021 @03:54PM (#27257989)
This has got to be one of the best mea culpas I've seen in a long, long time. If anyone internal gives you heat, you can tell them that, for this current non-client, it's actually moved Tripplebyte from "never in a million years" to "hmm, maybe I'll look into them." Being brutally honest makes the difference.
Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by akersten on Sunday May 23, 2021 @04:36PM (#27258365)
This actually definitely moved it to "not in a million years" for me. What kind of clown show engineering team makes this kind of oversight? They knew there were profiles that would be part of the old 12-month delay feature (and if they didn't know about this feature that also speaks volumes about their internal knowledge of their own product) and neglected to fix it or notify them about their new options. What else are they neglecting?

This is not a weird edge case or a nobody-could-have-caught this. This should have been obvious and come up immediately in the "how are we thoroughly addressing this dark pattern" root-cause.

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by javajosh on Sunday May 23, 2021 @05:16PM (#27258670)
The world is much worse if we don't let people correct their mistakes.
Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by akersten on Sunday May 23, 2021 @05:56PM (#27258985)
This now marks the 2nd time we are "letting" this company fix the same mistake, and it gets harder to assume good faith when the same issue crops up repeatedly.

Calling out poor engineering is not prohibiting them from fixing it. It's calling the bluff on "oopsie woopsie a privacy issue again, silly us," for a company whose primary KPI is public profile engagement. The more things like this happen, the less they look like mistakes.

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by kodah on Monday May 24, 2021 @12:48AM (#27261153)
It's taken me a long time to understand this, but sometimes the single mistake is something that leads to a cavalcade of mistakes. That could be putting a burned out person in the review pipeline who greenlights everything, it could be an overzealous engineer trying to make a name for themselves with retention and engagement, etc...

As pointed out earlier, we do need to let people make mistakes, and often their paths will appear to be non-linear. I struggle with this too, but a world that doesn't understand that is much worse.

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by kordlessagain on Sunday May 23, 2021 @07:36PM (#27259630)
> The more things like this happen, the less they look like mistakes.

That's a fallacy and being kind to humans is hard.

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by kragen on Sunday May 23, 2021 @05:30PM (#27258757)
'What kind of clown show engineering team makes this kind of oversight?'

either you've never worked at a company or you've only worked at one or two places, and they had astoundingly high standards for successful collaboration. what were they, because now i want to apply to work there.

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by akersten on Sunday May 23, 2021 @05:53PM (#27258955)
It's news to me that fully fixing a bug constitutes an "astoundingly high standard for successful collaboration." I consider that a baseline expectation, across my 14 years and 5 different companies of industry experience.

I stand by my point that this is a symptom of amateur hour engineering.

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by ficklepickle on Sunday May 23, 2021 @06:01PM (#27259027)
Seriously, can you list those 5 companies? Because where I am currently at, this level of ineptitude is something to aspire to.
Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by kragen on Monday May 24, 2021 @12:22AM (#27261067)
Fully fixing every bug constitutes an astoundingly high standard for successful collaboration. Every place I've worked fully fixed some bugs, after all. You'd think that massive company-threatening bugs that result in damage control to the press would be different, and they are, but often not in a way that makes them more likely to be fully fixed.

I note that you seem to have ignored my question entirely, in what I can only characterize as mean-spirited discourtesy.

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by lostdog on Monday May 24, 2021 @03:01AM (#27261704)
It's the one bug involved in a huge outrage and a statement from the CEO. It's the one bug that they announced publicly that they fixed, despite absolutely knowing that they didn't. So yeah, just one bug.

(Nothing against this PM, btw. But what a bunch of incompetence from the CEO)

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by predaking on Sunday May 23, 2021 @06:11PM (#27259099)
Awesome. Would you mind answering the question posed above you? I’m definitely curious myself.
Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by Aeolun on Monday May 24, 2021 @07:35AM (#27263178)
Looking at the public bug tracker of any mildly large company teaches me that fully fixing a bug just isn’t a thing they do.
Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by hvdijk on Sunday May 23, 2021 @04:51PM (#27258488)
This is something that can happen even if everybody is aware of the problem. We don't know what their internal structure looks like, but in enough places I've worked, if something like this would happen, it would be clear that something needs to be done, but it would also be everybody thinking it's someone else's responsibility to do it, so the end result is that it doesn't get done until someone notices the problem again after it should have already been addressed. That's bad, but not "not in a million years" bad, in my opinion.
Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by Applejinx on Sunday May 23, 2021 @04:57PM (#27258527)
The question is more like 'clown show, or evil clown show?'

If you think the former is uniquely horrible, you've not run into the latter :)

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by inimino on Sunday May 23, 2021 @07:02PM (#27259428)
I feel like you either haven't worked at many early startups, or there is a bit of a double standard here.
Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by ratherbefuddled on Sunday May 23, 2021 @04:01PM (#27258045)
This is a good response. Your CEO should read it and learn from it - as far as I recall his handling of the response to the incident last year was nothing short of abysmal.
Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by splonk on Sunday May 23, 2021 @07:55PM (#27259733)
After this reminder, I remembered his initial response. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23280137

He's since walked that back a bit (see other comments in his profile) , but personally I tend not to give someone the benefit of the doubt after they get shit on for such a terrible response.

(As a somewhat related note, people I know who have tried sourcing through Triplebyte were unimpressed with their candidates. No personal experience myself. I'm also told their cringey reddit ads had really good conversion, which feeds a narrative I'd be happy to believe.)

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by Aeolun on Monday May 24, 2021 @07:37AM (#27263194)
Having been sourced through Triplebyte (or rather, not sourced through Triplebyte by any company at all), I’m inclined to agree.
Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by jiofih on Monday May 24, 2021 @09:33AM (#27264144)
If the feature was only added after the backlash when everyone scrambled to hide their profiles, it amounts to nothing more than a “let’s try again next year”. A very convenient “honest mistake”.

If that’s not the case, can you share the percentage of profiles that will be turned public as of now?

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by rachofsunshine on Monday May 24, 2021 @12:31PM (#27266375)
As of now, none. We disabled the job that would re-enable profiles at the end of that snooze period until we have a more permanent fix.
Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by miclill on Sunday May 23, 2021 @04:30PM (#27258314)
What is your plan to prevent things similar to this of happening in the future?
Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by rachofsunshine on Sunday May 23, 2021 @06:01PM (#27259024)
Well, in this case it mostly didn't happen in the future - most of it happened last May. Our failure to catch it recently was a mistake, but the root error was building it that way in the first place. Still, I take your point.

After last year's snafu, we had a company-wide retro to discuss what had happened. It lasted a couple of hours, during which several people (including myself) were pretty blunt about what we thought. I don't want to get into a complete postmortem here, if only because it would make this post require ten paragraphs of niche internal culture context, but the biggest problem was that we had an internal communication breakdown. Many people who were uncomfortable with what we were doing, and who could have predicted the public response, did not feel empowered to speak up about it. Not in the sense that they'd face backlash for doing so, but in the sense that they felt they'd be ignored. This was less true than they thought - had they all spoken up at once, it probably would have made a difference - but more true than it should have been.

Since then, a number of people within Triplebyte (including Ammon, but also myself and various others) have made an effort to create space for those kinds of concerns.

One of our defining traits as an organization is that we're very good at creating coherent internal narratives. Everyone knows what we're doing and why. But the flip side of that is that in the effort to create clarity, we sometimes run over inconvenient details like "wait isn't that a terrible idea". That means that to avoid problems like last year's, we need to be explicit and deliberate in actively seeking out dissent about what we're doing, especially from people who are not the very assertive strong personalities that tend to show up in leadership. That doesn't mean that dissent is always right - strategic decisions are difficult and complicated, people do sometimes lack the visibility to see why they're made, and in a room of fifty people there's always going to be some disagreement - but it costs us very little to listen to it and (as we learned last year) can cost us dearly when we don't.

(Actually, as I was preparing to submit this post, one of our engineering leads pinged me on Slack to suggest ways we could avoid mistakes of the kind that spawned this thread - TLDR, build less automated shit that we can forget about until it bites us.)

I realize this reply is a little bit nonspecific ("make space for"? what does that even mean?), but that's the nature of solving a culture problem. You're necessarily wrestling with subtle cues and unspoken assumptions rather than with a thing where you can go "ah, yes, we just need to change step 2a of our product development process". But for what it's worth, I think we've gotten better about making sure we consider how people feel about what we're doing, and we've avoided some potential bad decisions in the year since then as a result.

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by btown on Monday May 24, 2021 @12:44AM (#27261141)
This post is really, really refreshing to read. As a startup founder I empathize deeply with how difficult it is to "actively seek out dissent." Product pipelines move quickly, teams need to feel they can have initiative to deploy things independently from the rest of the org, as a cross-team leader it's unhealthy to squash that initiative... but at the same time you need to set boundaries about when something needs consensus.

IMO this is why it's vital to have Core Principles at a company (in this case, "user trust" might be a reasonable wording), both at a product level and a meta level, about how the world needs to see the company and the company needs to see itself. And when any employee, no matter where, feels something might breach Core Principles, it should be a five alarm fire that the C suite should know about and react to (or delegate said reaction), and if it turns out to be a misunderstanding, that employee should not feel they expended any political capital in escalating their concerns - at worst they might just require more context about why something is either a non-issue or necessary (which in this specific case doesn't apply), and leadership should be excited to see them growing by asking those questions. Ideally, it's as easy and low-risk as submitting an internal bug report.

Of course, I can imagine this stops scaling at some point. FAANG need very different approaches to this problem, and that's probably an entire business school class to answer. But I feel any smaller organization with a focused product can move in this direction!

Re:Triplebyte now showing profiles by default without consent by aerovistae on Sunday May 23, 2021 @08:36PM (#27259971)
I for one, submitter of this thread, really appreciate your transparency and candidness.