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Re:Being Poor (2005) by dstick on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:46AM (#27244455)
I will never waste an opportunity to share my favorite quote from my favorite fantasy series, the Discworld:

“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.”

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by kstenerud on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:17AM (#27244606)
The responses to this comment pretty much sum up the wealthy person's understanding of the daily struggles of the poor.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by pontifier on Saturday May 22, 2021 @08:54AM (#27246035)
Homes are the new boots.

I buy cheap hotdogs for meat, and cheap cars that I drive into the ground to get my money's worth out of them, but I can't afford to pay rent. I've been almost homeless for the last year.

But, I just bought a house a few days ago. I bought it super cheap, and it needs a lot of work that I'm doing myself.

I still can't afford to pay rent, not because I couldn't, but because it's a waste of money.

I didn't think twice about buying this house because it was a fantastic deal.

5 years from now I will have spent less than someone that is still one payment away from being evicted if they miss a rent payment.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by enimodas on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:34AM (#27246369)
Is having roommates not common where you live?
Re:Being Poor (2005) by projectileboy on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:48AM (#27245604)
It’s cliche, but it’s nonetheless true that it’s very expensive to be poor.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by DoomHotel on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:30AM (#27245221)
Sam Vimes's $10 boots have become the 800 dollar cars in that article.

But cars are optional if you live somewhere with working mass transportation.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by quickthrower2 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:29AM (#27245217)
Boot longevity has nothing to do being rich (let’s say that rich means being a 5 millionaire). The rich are rich because they played the game somehow and won, or maybe their parents did. That simple.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by DanBC on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:36AM (#27245247)
The story is to illustrate why poor people stay poor, not how rich people got rich.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by bruce343434 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:11AM (#27245409)
It's still largely a game of chance
Re:Being Poor (2005) by foobar33333 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:01AM (#27244514)
This quote no longer applies. With buy now pay later schemes, its trivial for anyone to buy the nice boots and then pay them off over 2 years of affordable payments.

Of course in reality these schemes are traps to get poor people to overspend, but the issue is not that they are physically unable to buy long lasting items, but that the system is constantly trying to trick them in to failing.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by Broken_Hippo on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:32AM (#27244968)
Those "buy now, pay later" schemes aren't really available to poor folks in the same way, not the least of which because you are more likely to have bad credit, often because you owe things like utilities (maybe you moved and the old company still wants money) and medical bills.

When they are available, it is never really for things like shoes or the specialty-sized bra you really need that they do not sell at Wal-mart or a non-specialty store (I spent over $100 for my last one, and had to order in the US or wear something that didn't fit).

Instead, they'll lease you furniture, refrigerators, and stoves with the promise that you'll own it some day (and honestly, for washer/dryers, this might be the intelligent choice as it is cheaper than the pay laundry if you have a family). They'll give you a car loan for a bad car, too.

Buy now pay later schemes aren't even worth it if you are financially insecure: I'd have never done this with my ex, for example, even if I knew that on paper, we might have the money. My ex, you see, is my ex for a reason, and part of that reason was money simply going missing, sometimes meaning that I couldn't buy more food or be afraid of running out of gas. Poverty - on paper - is like this.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by foobar33333 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:42AM (#27245015)
Ok it sounds like this is a locality thing. In Australia you can just about buy a pack of gum on these apps and have monthly repayments of 50c. They have been pushed as almost replacements for credit cards.

They are absolutely a trap but if you were financially smart, you could use them to your advantage to overcome the initial investment vs lifetime cost problem.

The issue is not so much that these people have no options, but that they do not have the knowledge to pull them out of the endless traps that get marketed to them.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by kwhitefoot on Saturday May 22, 2021 @08:12AM (#27245750)
> if you were financially smart,

The problem is that when you are strapped for cash your freedom of action is limited and it is hard to be financially smart due to the stress.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by foobar33333 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:54PM (#27251291)
I agree. But it's still a different problem to the original quote. The problem these days is not that rich people can afford long lasting items that poor people can't because new financial services could be used to overcome the initial investment problem.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by TheOtherHobbes on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:38AM (#27244998)
The flip side is that when the Great Marketing Algorithm tags you "rich", you're suddenly inundated with special offers, savings, concessions of all kinds, freebies, investment opportunities - some more plausible than others - and other benefits.

You not only get your boots discounted and/or bundled with some other offer, there's a fair chance you don't have to pay for them at all.

I've been on both sides, and the differences are a real eye-opener.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by taneq on Saturday May 22, 2021 @07:48PM (#27251260)
Exactly. When you really need a loan the banks won’t give you the time of day, as soon as you don’t then they won’t piss off.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by nomorewords on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:13AM (#27244578)
Doesn't it? Although there are no-interest loans (for a promotional period at least), you are most likely going to pay more than what the price tag says since the bank wants to make a buck too. So the poor people end up spending more again.

I do agree that it is a better scenario than having to always buy the lesser quality item, but you still are paying the 'poverty tax'

Re:Being Poor (2005) by redisman on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:40AM (#27244724)
Looking up the biggest(?) online player in the space: "We offer payments at a rate between 0–30% APR based on customers' credit."

There it is. Barely hidden by more advanced financing.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by foobar33333 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:06AM (#27244855)
I'm not sure what the global scene is like but in Australia "After Pay" has taken over, they charge the fees to the retailer and ban passing them on directly so the system is subsidized by everyone.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by blfr on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:54AM (#27244489)
It's not true though, not any more at least. A supermarket pair of shoes is much, much less than even resoling of quality shoes. It's definitely cheaper to just wear them for a season or two instead of buying shoes that might last you a decade or two or more but cost 8-20x more and require expensive (in terms of cheaper shoes) fixes.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by kylegordon on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:02AM (#27244522)
It's an analogy, not a shoe review.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by blfr on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:39AM (#27244721)
Sure but mass production has made it true for virtually all mass produced goods.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by cauliflower2718 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:00AM (#27244511)
Back in the day, I used to spend ~$20 for a pair of rainboots, and they would invariably leak within a year. This stopped happening when I bought ~$50-$100 rain boots, which are certainly not grocery store boots. A $50-$100 pair of rain boots isn't exactly top quality, but is still much better than a $20 pair.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by scyzoryk_xyz on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:22AM (#27244630)
Oh you’re talking about the level of quality leveling off at a certain point when increasing price.

The quality difference between a $10 product and a $100 product of the same type is enormous. But then when you go up to $200 the quality increases much less. There is a name for this that I can’t recall right this second, the point being that there is a sweet spot price/quality wise for most things.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by aceki on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:30AM (#27244669)
You're thinking of the Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns
Re:Being Poor (2005) by cuu508 on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:38AM (#27244711)
"sweet spot", "the point of diminishing returns"
Re:Being Poor (2005) by amanaplanacanal on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:34PM (#27249615)
When it comes to clothing, a lot of people pay extra for specific brands, especially if the tag is on the outside so that other people can see it. Best not to do that if you are looking for good value.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by dstick on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:04AM (#27244527)
Please note that this is a quote from a fantasy world that is a disc, that rests on the back of 4 elephants, that stand on the back of a turtle that's swimming through space. Take the specifics with a grain of salt ;-)
Re:Being Poor (2005) by Dah00n on Saturday May 22, 2021 @09:06AM (#27246128)
Sounds less messed up than this world..
Re:Being Poor (2005) by Bootvis on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:01AM (#27244518)
Maybe not for boots but what about housing?
Re:Being Poor (2005) by nomorewords on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:17AM (#27244607)
Yeah, the above comment kind of stuck to the analogy item of shoes. A lot of the things that are quality and are worth it (from a long-term POV) are going to be better value than getting the lower quality item more often, than the one time purchase.

Housing is also getting pretty bad. Essentially, the lower your income, the more you are expected to pay back to the bank since you can only put aside so much money for the mortgage each month.

A well-off person will pay his house as much as 2-3x faster than a 'poor' person, essentially allowing him to invest for the future at a much earlier stage in life.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by viraptor on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:53AM (#27244799)
There are also extras that come with the home. The better house you buy, the less you spend on heating/cooling. The more you can invest in solar panels / batteries, the less you spend on electricity. The bigger house you get, the more space you can use for buying bulk items. The more exclusive area you live in, the lower the insurance. And many others...
Re:Being Poor (2005) by WalterBright on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:47AM (#27245038)
On the other hand, mortgage interest is often the cheapest way to borrow money. A savvy wealthier homeowner may very deliberately minimize paying back the mortgage in order to invest the borrowed funds elsewhere.

Mortgage interest is also tax-deductible, while personal loan interest is not. This makes the mortgage the last debt to pay off, not the first.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by lotsofpulp on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:53AM (#27245318)
> Mortgage interest is also tax-deductible, while personal loan interest is not

This does not affect 80%+ people, who are better off with standard deductions since 2017 tax cuts and jobs act.

In 2018, 87% did not itemize.

https://www.irs.gov/statistics/soi-tax-stats-tax-stats-at-a-...

Re:Being Poor (2005) by dragonwriter on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:26PM (#27249554)
> This does not affect 80%+ people, who are better off with standard deductions

This ignores the indisputable fact that if personal loan interest were deductible, fewer would be better off with the standard deduction.

I mean, if you eliminate all specific deductions, everyone will be better off with the standard deduction no matter how small it is. That doesn’t mean no one is impacted by the elimination of specific deductions, in fact, it means the opposite.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by lotsofpulp on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:58PM (#27250635)
I erroneously included the part about personal loans in what I quoted from WalterBright. I just intended to point out very few people benefit from mortgage interest tax deductions nowadays.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by WalterBright on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:23PM (#27249542)
80% were better off with Trump tax cuts? I had no idea! I should stop watching CNN :-)

In any case, this doesn't change that wealthy people are likely not in a hurry to pay off their cheapest debt.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by lotsofpulp on Saturday May 22, 2021 @05:57PM (#27250622)
Sorry, I was not supposed to include the part from your reply about personal loans. I was just pointing out that the mortgage interest deduction is effectively useless for 87% of people.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by dragonwriter on Saturday May 22, 2021 @03:30PM (#27249588)
> 80% were better off with Trump tax cuts?

No, 80% percent are better off with the standard deduction than itemizing given the Trump tax changes (which include increases, like limiting the SALT deduction, as well as cuts.)

Re:Being Poor (2005) by WalterBright on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:09PM (#27249875)
The standard deduction was nearly doubled, as well as the 15% tax rate was cut to 12%. It's hard to see how lower income people would be paying more.
Re:Being Poor (2005) by dragonwriter on Saturday May 22, 2021 @04:20PM (#27249939)
> It's hard to see how lower income people would be paying more.

One might almost imagine that there is a reason that no one at all has said “lower income people are paying more” in this discussion.

But have fun beating that strawman.

Re:Being Poor (2005) by WalterBright on Saturday May 22, 2021 @06:20PM (#27250788)
Except you decided to argue with me when I said they were better off under the Trump tax cuts.