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Re:Fierce Nerds by helen___keller on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @09:50AM (#27194502)
I enjoy reading Paul Graham's musings on nerds / nerdiness, but I can't help but have difficulty relating.

Maybe it's a generational thing (born in '92), but Graham often seems to paint a picture of nerds similar to what you might see in movies and TV shows depicting the 80s, like the kids in Stranger Things.

Even this article, while I can certainly conjure which of my friends growing up were the "fierce nerd", it still feels a little disconnected from my reality.

For example, Graham begins by explaining that the concept of a fierce nerd is one unknown to the general public. But I'm not sure I agree. In the era I grew up, there was not so much social distinction between who is a nerd, but there was a lot of social distinction for those who were argumentative, or "fierce". In my experience, everyone knew who the "fierce nerds" were (although not by that name), because they were known for their awkwardness and combativeness - not for their nerdiness. Indeed, my own nerdy friend circle in high school spanned a wide range of popularities and I would say "fierceness" (or rather, lack thereof) was probably the best indicator of popularity.

I see these themes spanning Graham's other musings on nerds, typically trying to characterize a class of kids who are hated for their interests and passions, but that's just never been my experience. I think it's a generational thing.

Re:Fierce Nerds by HeyImAlex on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:29AM (#27195029)
Same, born in 92 and his characterization of being nerdy and young seems super antiquated. “Nerdy” interests don’t make you a social pariah, they transcend groupings all together; the star quarterback plays dnd, the head cheerleader builds robots in her basement, the stigma on having unique or “nerdy” hobbies and interests is mostly gone. When I think of what PG is describing, it’s characterized by poor social skills and bad hygiene.
Re:Fierce Nerds by marvin on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @11:23AM (#27195860)
I'm just five years older than you and strongly relate to these descriptions of being a nerd, having academic interests not shared by young peers and consequently caring very little for social games. Even in adulthood, unless I carefully choose who I hang out with. And I'm from Europe, not the US, so it's not a thing local to the US either.

If it's truly a generational change, that would be a very interesting development. Especially if it happened in just the five years between when we were teenagers - I had no impression that people a few years younger than me had a wildly different experience than me. But I could certainly be mistaken.

Do you find no familiarity at all in these descriptions? Meaning some of the following - Being more interested in reading than gossiping, liking technical projects more than team sports, being uninterested in popularity contests and social status games to such a degree that you barely care about losing them, prioritizing learning over number of superficial acquaintances, having ideas and thoughts that you assume to be true but for which you experience lashback for stating out loud. Potentially experiencing some loneliness or hostility over this, not necessarily making that part of your identity, eventually seeking a small number of like-minded folks...

Has the world really changed this much? From my perspective, it seems likely that you're just not the target demographic for this essay.

Re:Fierce Nerds by HeyImAlex on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:13PM (#27196749)
I knew many people who fit that description, but with even a little social intelligence it seemed to me their experiences in highschool were pretty great; they weren’t nerds, they were just smart and studious and many were very well liked. Our homecoming king was on the academic decathalon team. Im not saying that smart, introverted folks with underdeveloped social skills don’t exist, just that they don’t exist opposite to bros and jocks and cool kids (and weren’t mercilessly bullied for being themselves).

On the other end, nerd-culture had permeated all levels of the social strata, and my very popular friends who partied every weekend were also semi-pro halo players and avid anime fans and didn’t hide either of those facts.

It’s only six years, but it could have been wide exposure to the internet? Also very possible I’m seeing the past through rose colored glasses.

Re:Fierce Nerds by nitrogen on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @03:43PM (#27200007)
There is a pretty wide variance from school to school, town to town, and state to state/country to country. Maybe you were in a particularly well-adjusted school, and other schools and communities are still more judgmental of non-blessed interests? Or maybe the nerds remain, but they had different interests from the new main-stream. I'd hardly call Halo a nerd thing, for example.
Re:Fierce Nerds by sharker8 on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @06:50PM (#27202289)
Maybe it was a well adjusted school, or maybe it was a school in which achievement culture and college application stacking and reverse engineering had fully run their course. After all, 'well rounded' on paper people get into elite colleges, and people from elite colleges have a better shot at becoming rich. Nothing less nerdy than wanting to be rich.
Re:Fierce Nerds by pseudalopex on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @04:59PM (#27201028)
Halo isn't a nerd thing. Pro gaming is.
Re:Fierce Nerds by randcraw on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @03:11PM (#27199545)
How old is PG? Born in 1964, so age 56, according to Wiki. I'm from the same era. Being young and nerdy in the '60s and '70s was pretty isolating.

Computers weren't available until the early '80s, and weren't affordable for another decade, so few kids had easy access to them, and networks didn't arise until about 1990. So if you were born before '80-'85, you had a tough time rallying around tech toys with other nerds/geeks to share your enlightened world view.

Stewing nerds in their own juices through adolescence tends to foment fierceness, which is just another word for not understanding or tolerating non-nerds very well. With today's omnipresent social connectivity, isolation should be less a problem in 2021, since tech content and cool devices are everywhere today.

What I would have given to play around with RPi or robots in my teens...

Re:Fierce Nerds by SilurianWenlock on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:37PM (#27198215)
I think that a total disinterest in politicking is why so many people on here complain about how software engineers are treated at non tech companies
Re:Fierce Nerds by dugmartin on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:57AM (#27195478)
I can tell you as someone that graduated college in 92 that being nerdy as a kid in the 70s/80s it was very different from that, at least in my area of the world (Midwest USA).

If you want a not very distorted glimpse of what it was like watch the movie, "Revenge of the Nerds".

Re:Fierce Nerds by watwut on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @11:06AM (#27195624)
In that movie, nerds publicly sexually harass and worst their enemies girlfriend. Yes, girlfriend mocks him at one moment, but the response is ridiculous. Are you sure you want to claim that is how things actually were?

Edit: in the movie nerds sell secretly taken naked pictures of said girlfriend to earn money. The movie is old and ridiculous, but when you start to claim this is how things were, I want to know wtf was going on in your school.

Re:Fierce Nerds by leetcrew on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @02:11PM (#27198719)
stuff like that happened at my high school, and not that long ago. do you not believe that kind of thing happens/happened, or do you just not believe that "nerds" can be the perpetrators?

these kinds of events can fly under the radar if you aren't involved. I only know of the situation I'm thinking of because the girl found out and complained to the school, which ended up expelling the others involved.

Re:Fierce Nerds by watwut on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @02:27PM (#27198941)
I do not think the movie is "a not very distorted glimpse of what it was like".

More importantly, if movie is accurate, then nerds are no better then evil jocks. They are just two groups of bullies and assholes locked in a fight where everybody who avoids them is doing something smart.

In your school, did the girl that got her nudes public got together with the dude that took them and sold them? You can peel levels of that movie how much you want, you won't get meaningfull image of reality.

Re:Fierce Nerds by riversflow on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:16PM (#27196833)
Where are you (or GP) from? Im also ‘92. I grew up in California, but in a rural part of the state. Nerdy interests absolutely had a stigma. My high school didn’t even have a CS class, no academic decathlon team, and certainly no robotics club. It was the “best” school in my district, too.

In challenging or AP classes you had essentially two groups, the jocks, who were trying to follow a college track, for which sports were essentially requisite in our district, and the nerds who just liked learning stuff. The jocks(male and female) did their homework as a group, complained loudly about difficult tests/assignments and consistently used their relative influence to affect their grades. The nerds brought in their own lessons, asked questions that lead the class off topic, consistently read the textbook and stayed late to ask questions rather than negotiate.

Anyway, thought I’d throw this anecdote out there for variety.

Re:Fierce Nerds by HeyImAlex on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @12:46PM (#27197383)
I was in a semi-rural suburb of San Antonio, Texas. We had a CS class, our academic decathalon team team placed 6th in state (I was a C but placed 3rd in individual), and I took a lot of AP science and math so I spent a lot of time with the top people in our class. It was… a great time. Non-AP classes were hit or miss, but AP physics C, calculus B/C, and art history were some of my all time favorite school experiences. I feel very lucky to have had the time I did.
Re:Fierce Nerds by SyzygistSix on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:06PM (#27197708)
Things have changed a lot since then though. In a positive way.
Re:Fierce Nerds by pnathan on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @11:58AM (#27196458)
You're a bit young then. I'm a decade older, and see very clear similarities in my age cohort to what he's describing, particularly when I was in my early 20s and teens. Which is interesting, because a good theory of behavior is not limited that tightly in time.
Re:Fierce Nerds by sharker8 on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @06:13PM (#27201964)
If there are star QBs that play DND (somehow I doubt there actually are that many) this is just proof that DND has gone mainstream and is therefore being commercialized as nerdy while actually not nerdy any more. This is known in some parlances as 'nerd-chic'.
Re:Fierce Nerds by spamizbad on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:22AM (#27194950)
I think after the dotcom craze, it stopped being "edgy" or "different" to be passionate/ambitious about technology. If anything, it's the most straightforward thing to pursue ideas or business interests with these days, especially if you have a "fierce" personality.
Re:Fierce Nerds by helen___keller on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:29AM (#27195027)
To be fair, there's a lot more to the "nerd" archetype than just technology. But, from my experience, it was not particularly edgy or differentiating to be passionate about video games, board games, card games, literature, obscure TV, fanfics, internet culture, etc.
Re:Fierce Nerds by dagw on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:43AM (#27195246)
there's a lot more to the "nerd" archetype than just technology.

I'd probably go as far as saying that technology (or at least practical technical skills) has become far less relevant as a 'nerd' marker.

Many of the self identifying 'nerds' I meet might be avid technophiles, but it's not like most of them know how to code better than anybody else (or at all in many cases).

Re:Fierce Nerds by shard on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:41AM (#27195213)
Is the word "geek" no longer used for what you are describing? Although there a lot of overlap, I thought nerd referred to strong interests in academic subjects and geek referred to niche cultural subjects.
Re:Fierce Nerds by helen___keller on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:53AM (#27195415)
True, I've been conflating the two in all of my posts. As far as how they were used when I was growing up, the distinction tended to be moot because they were most commonly used ironically or jokingly.
Re:Fierce Nerds by SyzygistSix on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:09PM (#27197751)
That is the problem with using labels rather than talking about what people are doing or what specific actions they are taking.
Re:Fierce Nerds by spamizbad on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:39AM (#27195178)
Yeah... if anything that seems normal these days? Many young adults are passionate about at least one of those things, whereas for Gen-X (Paul's generational cohort) those were far more underground interests.
Re:Fierce Nerds by zozbot234 on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:05AM (#27194699)
Paul Graham himself muses in this post that the main contrast is between people who are "good at making deals" and those who are actually competent in some relevant domain. We can see this shift happening in politics as well.
Re:Fierce Nerds by woeIsPG on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:08AM (#27194744)
A year ago he was musing how categorizing people into two groups was too basic.

Xist versus Yist, and he showed us with some pretty basic math.

Now two groups is all we need to understand the world?

Re:Fierce Nerds by dimitrios1 on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:18AM (#27194887)
The two group categorization is a rhetorical device commonly used everywhere, throughout the world, to help drive a point, worldview, or allegory home. In it's correct form, it is never intended to be a dichotomy (as this would make it fallacious).

So perhaps the way to understand it is PG believes people fit in these two groups, but those are not the only two groups you fit in, and they are by no means all-encompassing.

It's kind of like, you are either a member of team red, or team blue. You may be a blue type of person, another is a red, but that by no means defines the entirety of your being.

Let's try to have a little more good faith here, when trying to understand people's musings. The reality is, most of us here wouldn't have the courage to put our thoughts and opinions out there on the internet for the whole world to see, at least not to the extent PG does.

Re:Fierce Nerds by AbrahamParangi on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:19AM (#27194895)
I am reminded of a fun idea:

The reason that 4 quadrant divisions of the world seem like they always work is because any two vectors chosen at random in a high dimensional space are nearly orthogonal with high probability.

Re:Fierce Nerds by mcguire on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:19AM (#27194896)
If one were suitably cynical (and independent-minded, another of his bugaboos) one might suggest that it's always been "the kind Paul appeals to" and "the bad people".
Re:Fierce Nerds by bluetomcat on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:20AM (#27194909)
The article is an attempt of classifying people into neat groups with certain characteristics, without acknowledging their true inner personality as a result of the cultural background and the particular individual qualities. "Nerd" is one such classification, "fierce" is a sub-classification. Semantic word-play with little empirical or anecdotal evidence.
Re:Fierce Nerds by _jal on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:19AM (#27194894)
Well, we could certainly speak to the difference between those whose emotional needs are served by sharing their advice with the world, and those for whom they aren't.
Re:Fierce Nerds by woeIsPG on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @11:01AM (#27195546)
I’d take PG more seriously if he actually had to work to maintain his flock. Folks who struck it rich in the lottery talk about how suddenly everyone wanted to be their friend.

I’ve been rummaging around the human experience for 41 years, applying technology to problems at public uni and big corp, building houses, growing food, hunting, earned degrees in electrical engineering and math.

To me that’s all there is, to go do directly.

All this feels like is someone who is riding off that lottery ticket.

That is, I’m not seeing an information advantage. Just a political capital advantage.

I thought we did away with allegiance to unelected political agents?

Re:Fierce Nerds by moolcool on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:00AM (#27194649)
There's definitely some eccentric people in the field, but a vast majority people I've met working in tech were hardly the Poindexter type characterized in these articles
Re:Fierce Nerds by nzmsv on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:02AM (#27194669)
But do they think of themselves as such?
Re:Fierce Nerds by moolcool on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @10:12AM (#27194791)
I don't think so. I saw a lot of that kind of mentality in university among CS students, but it faded away immediately once I entered the workforce.
Re:Fierce Nerds by heavyset_go on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @05:11PM (#27201202)
> Maybe it's a generational thing (born in '92), but Graham often seems to paint a picture of nerds similar to what you might see in movies and TV shows depicting the 80s, like the kids in Stranger Things.

Graham's characterizations of nerds reminds me of the "They don't know" meme[1] guy.

[1] https://www.buzzfeed.com/kristatorres/they-dont-know-twitter