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Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by raspyberr on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:25AM (#27181525)
Marketing is about making me spend money. All those examples he gave could have been solved with the person searching rather than being told. Bored? Find something to do. Hungry? Find something to eat. Marketing heavily favours large amounts of money and things with large amounts of money aren't humans and don't have morals. They no longer exist to offer you solutions to your problems. Mass marketing is evil. Targeted marketing is evil. Marketing as a term is a business term not a human term.
Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by duckmysick on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:15AM (#27181857)
The problem is marketing influences our searching, even if we're not aware of it.

When you find something to eat at the farmer's market, your choice is largely influenced by the seller's marketing efforts: pricing, selection, her straw hat, or the fact that the best looking plump heirloom tomatoes are right in front of the stall. The farmer is telling you to buy her produce even before she speaks to you.

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by WalterBright on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:14AM (#27181845)
> Marketing is about making me spend money.

Making you? Or else what are they going to do to you?

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by qPM9l3XJrF on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:49AM (#27181649)
>things with large amounts of money aren't humans and don't have morals

"Dehumanize when it's trendy." This is billionairephobia, friend.

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by taberiand on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:51AM (#27181657)
That's ok, billionaires shouldn't exist (except that what would replace them would be worse).
Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by qPM9l3XJrF on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:57AM (#27181706)
If I gave you a billion dollars, do you believe that you would suddenly transform into an amoral non-human monster?
Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by KozmoNau7 on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:02AM (#27181747)
That's a trick question, because the only way[¤] to amass enough wealth to become a billionaire, is to be amoral and callous in the first place.

[¤]Excepting the exceedingly rare few who win an exceedingly rare 1+ billion lottery prize.

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by qPM9l3XJrF on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:07AM (#27181789)
If what you say is true, billionaires who inherit their money should also be among the most ethical. Is that what you believe?
Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by KozmoNau7 on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:13AM (#27181840)
Everyone who inherited that sort of wealth was brought up and raised by billionaires, they were literally brought up in that worldview from the day they were born.

There is no such thing as an ethical billionaire, that's the whole problem, that such wealth can only be amassed by unethical means.

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by qPM9l3XJrF on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:23AM (#27181918)
Is there such a thing as an ethical thousandaire? Millionaire?

If you think there is, why can't there be ethical billionaires? An ethical billionaire is just an ethical millionaire who kept working to make the source of their income grow until it grew 1000x as large.

Big businesses are generally more ethical than little ones -- subject to more customer and regulatory scrutiny. It's much easier for a small business to get away with flouting environmental regulations or treating its employees harshly. (When's the last time the manager at a tiny roadside restaurant got fired for sexually harassing his employees?) This increased level of scrutiny means it is easier to bring to mind examples of unethical behavior by large businesses even if the actual rate is about the same. The media is biased to cover misdeeds by billionaires due to billionairephobia, the same way it is biased to cover misdeeds by Black people due to racism.

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by KozmoNau7 on Monday May 17, 2021 @10:10AM (#27183603)
The only way to amass that sort of wealth is to exploit the labor of others.

There are countless examples.

Amazon warehouse employees not being allotted time to go to the bathroom, while Jeff Bezos buys a $165 million mansion in LA, not to mention the endemic underpayment and disregard for physical and mental stress.

Richard Branson forcing his employees on 8 weeks of unpaid leave, while he's sitting comfortably on a fortune that means he doesn't have to care.

Steve Jobs building the wealthiest company in the world and becoming a billionaire, while their subcontractors install suicide preventing nets on their factories.

Simply the fact that some people are amassing such wealth, while millions of people in the world starve and cannot access even basic education or healthcare. That alone makes being a billionaire unethical, by default.

> "The media is biased to cover misdeeds by billionaires due to billionairephobia, the same way it is biased to cover misdeeds by Black people due to racism."

Excuse me, but did you just compare literally the most privileged human beings to ever exist in all of history, to people who have been historically downtrodden and subjugated for hundreds of years due to their ethnicity?

The mind boggles at what a temporarily embarrassed billionaire can delude themselves into thinking.

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by qPM9l3XJrF on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @01:32AM (#27191547)
"Excuse me, but did you just compare the number 1 to the number 1000 by pointing out that they are both positive integers?"

The point I am making is simple. There are approaching 3,000 billionaires worldwide. Suppose 90% are upstanding and 10% are unethical. That's 300 unethical billionaires. Suppose each unethical billionaire does just 1-2 unethical things per year, that is plenty of "unethical billionaire" stories for journalists to write about an unethical billionaire every day if they want.

You write: "The only way to amass that sort of wealth is to exploit the labor of others." Then you cite a few examples of billionaires behaving, in your view, unethically. That's very nice, but to prove your claim, you need to show that every billionaire has done this. You mentioned 3 billionaires. With about 3,000 worldwide, you are about 0.1% of the way there.

But the examples you've provided so far don't even pass the sniff test. Example:

"ABC News[47] and The Economist[48] both conducted comparisons, and found that although the number of workplace suicides at Foxconn was large in absolute terms, the suicide rate was actually lower than the overall suicide rate of China[49] or the United States."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Analysis

>Simply the fact that some people are amassing such wealth, while millions of people in the world starve and cannot access even basic education or healthcare. That alone makes being a billionaire unethical, by default.

This argument only applies to billionaires who haven't signed the giving pledge. Those I will agree with you on. However, it would be highly unethical to tax away the wealth of those who have signed the Giving Pledge, in order to provide even more goodies for Americans who are already quite wealthy by global standards.

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by KozmoNau7 on Tuesday May 18, 2021 @07:30AM (#27193342)
The giving pledge is blatant fraud, pure and simple. 0% of billionaires are upstanding, they are all exploiters and vultures.

The signees haven't even made any moves towards actually giving away a significant fraction of their wealth, their collective wealth has more than doubled over 10 years. Add to this that the majority of donations have been given to private foundations[¤], and that donations to charity are tax-deductible, means it really is no more than a giant tax scheme, under a thin veil of "charity".

[¤] Often family foundations, which pay salaries to family members of the donors and don't disclose where the donations actually go.

Once again, it is impossible to amass such wealth (a significant fraction of any country's GDP) and keep it, without extracting an extreme excess of value from the labor of others. You cannot become this rich by simply "working hard", you cannot amass such wealth through any kind of individual labor. It can only come from the mass exploitation of the labor of others, from not paying people the fair value of their labor.

Pretending to give away a tiny portion of that to charity, after the fact, is like putting a Hello Kitty band aid on a massive gaping chest wound. Ineffective at best, and in reality an abject insult.

The fact that we know that we could make the world better, by taxing corporations, capital gains and inheritances much higher, yet refuse to do so, is a scathing condemnation of the callous and inhumane nature of capitalism.

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by qPM9l3XJrF on Wednesday May 19, 2021 @11:36AM (#27210141)
The strength of your claims is vastly out of proportion to the strength of your evidence.

Remember all the furor over the Gates divorce because people were worried that it would impact their global health work and so on? I guess that was all bogus concern because the Gates Foundation is actually a giant tax scheme?

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by WalterBright on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:15AM (#27181853)
What did JK Rowling do that was unethical? How about Paul McCartney? Oprah?
Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by davidcbc on Monday May 17, 2021 @09:38AM (#27183231)
Kept more money than they could ever possibly need while others starve.
Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by WalterBright on Monday May 17, 2021 @02:27PM (#27186483)
Then you agree that "such wealth can only be amassed by unethical means" is not correct.
Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by taberiand on Monday May 17, 2021 @10:32AM (#27183865)
You've put words in my mouth. I think billionaires shouldn't exist because that level of wealth concentration represents a failure of the fair distribution of wealth through society, regardless of the moral standing of the individual.

Given the state of the system though, I think the only thing that could replace them would be something even less fair and more violent than what we have.

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by bigbillheck on Monday May 17, 2021 @01:40PM (#27186003)
Of course not. There'd be a short window in which I could give most of that money away without endangering my soul.
Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by cagenut on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:58AM (#27181724)
not suddenly, but within a decade, yep
Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by qPM9l3XJrF on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:06AM (#27181776)
Why do you believe that?

And if you believe that, how are you so sure that it hasn't already happened? If you're a software developer making $100K annually, you are already in the global 1%. Should people like you exist? Have you signed any sort of giving pledge, as many billionaires have? https://givingpledge.org/

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by dan-robertson on Monday May 17, 2021 @05:55AM (#27181688)
The commenter is talking in general terms about [big, faceless] companies, hence “things” not “people” or “humans”
Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by qPM9l3XJrF on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:12AM (#27181833)
It looks like a billionairephobic dog whistle to me. Why is it necessary to emphasize that they aren't humans if what he means to refer to are corporations?

But here are some interesting stats for you. raspyberr thinks that "things with large amounts of money aren't humans and don't have morals". So let's consider the thing with the largest amount of money of all: the US federal government. The federal government's annual budget is almost 6 trillion, approximately 30 times that of Google Inc. Google gets 100% of its energy from renewable sources. The corresponding figure for the federal government is 10%. Shall we tax Google more? I'm not sure. Seems like we'd just transfer assets from a moderately amoral entity to one which is even more amoral.

Re:The “Marketing Is Evil” Problem by raspyberr on Monday May 17, 2021 @06:27AM (#27181946)
Well since this is spurring a conversation I should clarify my position. The person above was right. I was talking about corporations and companies. Billionaire humans are a seperate discussion but they aren't the marketing industry.

With regards to your second point, I don't really think you've said anything noteworthy. Governments aren't humans and don't have morals. They're processes. When they do mass marketing we call it propoganda and that word seems to have pretty negative connotations with it.