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Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by marcus_holmes on Friday May 14, 2021 @08:43AM (#27153617)
Is PIA shady? Or is it VPNs that are shady? Where's the shadiness here?
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by Nextgrid on Friday May 14, 2021 @08:56AM (#27153719)
The majority of the VPN industry is shady. It relies on spreading FUD and unfounded claims about security & privacy, and the economics don't make sense for a lot of them - they appear to spend more on marketing than the expected profits from such a service, so extra money must be made somehow, probably though unethical means.
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by marcus_holmes on Friday May 14, 2021 @11:07AM (#27155073)
I travel a lot (well, not right now because pandemic), and live in countries that I don't have a bank account in, or speak the language of.

This is a problem for a lot of web services. Apparently where your IP is located determines where you bank and what language you speak. Apparently people like me don't exist, or rather, are a small enough market to be completely ignored (which was the upshot of my conversation with Spotify support when I asked them to send me invoices in a language I understood, please, since they know I use the English client but send me bills in German).

So to make my life easier, I use a VPN and pretend I'm in Australia/UK/Jersey/USA/Estonia/wherever makes most sense.

I'm happy to pay for that. So far PIA have been great. They even have a good-looking Linux client that works with Wireguard.

But if there's shadiness, then I'd like to be aware of it. I was genuinely asking where the shadiness is here.

Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by Nextgrid on Friday May 14, 2021 @01:18PM (#27156885)
I'm not saying there aren't legitimate reasons to use a VPN, but beyond circumventing geo-blocking and defending unencrypted protocols (which are very rare nowadays) against malicious local networks (public Wi-Fi, etc) there aren't many.

The vast majority of VPN selling points are nothing but FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt). Security-wise, most (all?) websites you care about now use HTTPS which provides end-to-end encryption and are thus immune to malicious networks (public Wi-Fi isn't risky at all despite what some VPN ads say), and even if not, then the VPN isn't bulletproof either as it merely shifts the unencrypted traffic from your "local network -> server" to "VPN provider -> server" which might actually attrack more scrutiny from malicious actors as they've now got to only tap a single point and get lots of unencrypted traffic. Privacy-wise the biggest threats to your privacy are advertising companies and social networks, which will track you just as well if you're on a VPN based on cookies or browser fingerprinting (a VPN alone wouldn't protect you - I guess if you clear your cookies before switching to the VPN and never allow cookies to cross-over between VPN/non-VPN you might have a chance, but surprisingly this is never mentioned in any of their ads).

Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by nieve on Saturday May 15, 2021 @06:36AM (#27164033)
At least in America there's a significant special case of malicious networks: ISPs that track their customer's browsing, inject ads, or both. Being a paying customer doesn't protect against this and ESNI/ECH are neither universal nor neutral in whose sites are protected. For that matter ESNI/ECH traffic is now being blocked by the Great Firewall of China and at least one major Russian Telco.
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by techrat on Friday May 14, 2021 @11:37AM (#27155390)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21679682

Not OMG SHADY! but definitely gives me cause for concern. As one comment said: "Trust and ethics are important."

Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by nichch on Friday May 14, 2021 @11:44AM (#27155458)
The economics make sense to me. I’ve ran a VPN for 10 (concurrent!) people on a $5 droplet. If I charged them PIA prices (monthly), that’s $95 a month in profit. The insane 3 year or 2 year deals are obviously subsidized by continuous sign ups, meaning constant in your face ad placement is necessary.

I’d even say they’re probably making direct profit from the $2.69 a month plan too. Essentially all VPN providers do is resell bandwidth, just at an insane upcharge in the name of “privacy”.

Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by Nextgrid on Friday May 14, 2021 @01:14PM (#27156792)
Running a VPN for 10 people is very different from running a heavily-advertised VPN for thousands of people.

You got away with it because those 10 people are trustworthy and didn't use the VPN for malicious activities (or they managed to fly under the radar).

Now try actually advertise that VPN like the big VPN providers do and see how you fare. You'll get your droplet and entire DigitalOcean account shut down in no time, and the administrative overhead of having to deal with all the abuse reports and support queries will make it unsustainable.

---

> The insane 3 year or 2 year deals are obviously subsidized by continuous sign ups, meaning constant in your face ad placement is necessary.

So essentially it's a pyramid scheme then.

Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by nichch on Friday May 14, 2021 @02:03PM (#27157568)
I agree that the VPN industry is shady, I agree that the claims they make border on fraud. I was just saying cash wise, these guys have to be rolling in it.

I'm sure there are backhaul providers that will turn a blind eye to constant abuse reports. And since we agree that these companies are shady I can't imagine they have too big of a team that handles these. They probably forward them to users and call it a day. Too many in a short period of time? Close the account.

> So essentially it's a pyramid scheme then.

Of course this is speculation, but it makes logical sense to me. Imagine how many people will sign up for the 2/3 year, use it a lot for the first few months and then just drop off? PIA gets a large payment upfront, on an already high margin business, allowing them to spend insane money on advertisements or YouTube placements, netting them more customers who sign up for the year bundles. Rinse and repeat.

Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by TedDoesntTalk on Friday May 14, 2021 @08:55AM (#27153709)
They’re incorporated in the British Virgin Islands and no one can find out the names of the directors/owners/CEO/people in charge.

That’s not shady to you, especially for a company that sells privacy?

Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by jaywalk on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:03AM (#27153789)
So what you're saying is, the people in charge are really good at privacy? And this is a problem?

/s

Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by ta988 on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:52AM (#27154299)
Yes because giving your privacy to someone requires trust if you want it to stay privacy.
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by jussij on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:12AM (#27153879)
They should have used the "Double Irish With a Dutch Sandwich" model like Google.
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by mistrial9 on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:48AM (#27154261)
you compare aggressive teams with literally billions of dollars to an un-ending network activity that generates more costs than new nickels? have you ever been actually poor and yet working every day? stunningly insensitive, not funny
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by varjag on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:25AM (#27154028)
Andrew Lee of Mt Gox fame is your guy. Also claims to be the crown prince of Korea.
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by TedDoesntTalk on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:40AM (#27154175)
What if it is the NSA instead?
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by varjag on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:59AM (#27154375)
He's mentioned in the paste.
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by jcims on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:10AM (#27153855)
They sell privacy but it would have been obvious from the very beginning that they’re going to be a magnet for illegal activity. I would probably do the same thing if I were them.
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by bigth on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:05AM (#27153807)
Sounds like they know how to keep private.
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by TedDoesntTalk on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:40AM (#27154178)
And that’s the problem. How do you know they are not a state actor?
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by marcus_holmes on Friday May 14, 2021 @11:11AM (#27155111)
I don't care tbh.

The threat I'm protecting against isn't the state reading my emails, it's Spotify (for example, but there are many, many more) refusing to sign me up because my IP is in a different country to my bank account.

Or every single bloody website on the internet ignoring my browser's preferred language settings and serving me content in the language that they think my IP address comes from.

Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by humanlion87 on Friday May 14, 2021 @08:55AM (#27153710)
Not OP. I am not sure about PIA. But I had recently done some research on VPNs since I was interested in getting one. From what I remember, most of the VPN services are owned by a few companies. And those companies don't seem to have a track record of good security or acting in the best interests of the customer (selling data, giving up logs, etc). My takeaway from that research was that I need to be real careful when trying to choose a VPN service provider and keep track of acquisitions.
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by fastball on Friday May 14, 2021 @10:19AM (#27154611)
For anyone that wants a less shady VPN, I've found Mullvad[1] to be very good. They take privacy to the next level, where you can literally mail them an envelope full of cash with your anonymous login key and they'll top up the credit on the account. I also like Mullvad because they seem to spend approximately $0 on marketing (at least compared to the other guys) and don't do any of those bullshitty perpetual "limited-time offer" shenanigans.

If you're American and want a VPN based in America (not the Virgin Islands etc), I've found TorGuard[2] to be very good as well.

[1] https://mullvad.net/en/

[2] https://torguard.net/

Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by o-__-o on Friday May 14, 2021 @08:59AM (#27153752)
Or just get a dedicated server or vps somewhere and run OpenVPN or wire guard. There is no shortage of cheap vps providers so you could create deploy scripts and rotate your vpn endpoint regularly

Disclaimer: I’ve been doing just that for 13 years now

Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by CarelessExpert on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:14AM (#27153892)
Which is trivially traceable back to you and therefore defeats the purpose of providing anonymity. Much of the value of one of these VPN services is they effectively launder your traffic by mixing it with that of their other clients.
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by o-__-o on Friday May 14, 2021 @06:07PM (#27160209)
Yeah I guess it _is_ illegal to tumble bitcoins now
Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by rascul on Friday May 14, 2021 @09:47AM (#27154257)
PIA was aquired by a company that some consider to have a shady past.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21679682

Re:I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff by marcus_holmes on Friday May 14, 2021 @11:17AM (#27155171)
Thanks for the link :) Though that top comment seems to explain that situation fairly well? Reading the rest of the thread it looks like FUD and the usual HN mess, is there any actual evidence of shadiness since the merger?