News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by ddxxdd on Friday May 14, 2021 @06:05AM (#27152613)
>Of course, that flies in the face of all efforts to make things green…which involve better insulation, sealing windows against leaks, more air filtration systems and etc.

If anyone has a half-hour of time to waste, you can look into the science of "countercurrent heat exchangers".

It's fascinating to see how 2 pipes of air current switch temperatures when they're in contact and moving in opposite directions.

So if you want to be green AND have fresh air constantly circulating through a building, then forcing the warm inside air to pass by the cold outside air as they leave/enter the building can lead to somewhere around 95% energy recovery.

Add in a humidifier to the incoming air, and you'll have a comfortable room with humidity that will attach to airborne droplets, prevent evaporative release of a raw airborne virus, and help pull the droplet down to the ground via gravity.

Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by londons_explore on Friday May 14, 2021 @07:49AM (#27153197)
Wikipedia claims "Heat recovery systems typically recover about 60–95% of the heat in exhaust air".

But even recovering 95% of heat isn't exactly great. If you live in Canada and have a 2600 sq ft house with 8 ft ceilings and 10 changes of air per hour, and the indoors is 70F and outdoors is 0F, thats 2600810 cubic feet of air/ per hour, or 12000 BTU/hr. That means you are more than doubling your heating costs compared to sealing the building and just having conductive losses through the walls.

This is true for most climates - even the best energy recovery systems still double heating/cooling costs compared to having barely any fresh air.

Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by graeme on Friday May 14, 2021 @11:39AM (#27155410)
Something must be off with your math. I’ve tested opening a window a crack in my building in montreal. The co2 gets low even with two people present. Heating costs did not double.

Or maybe I had less than ten air changes?

Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by richardw on Friday May 14, 2021 @08:49AM (#27153660)
It can’t be that hard to focus on the rooms with people in them, reduce the other rooms to eg one change an hour.
Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by Enginerrrd on Friday May 14, 2021 @10:00AM (#27154399)
This is already done when calculating ventilation rates. It won't matter much because the majority of space in an occupied building is going to be classified as, well, occupied.
Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by Scoundreller on Friday May 14, 2021 @11:42AM (#27155438)
I always wonder how much I save by blocking off the vents in under-occupied rooms. They end up sitting a few degrees cooler in winter.
Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by staychilled on Monday May 17, 2021 @10:42AM (#27183984)
The problem is very seldom the house. The problem is shared spaces.
Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by ddxxdd on Friday May 14, 2021 @08:32AM (#27153519)
10 air changes per hour is a lot; I believe the current recommendations for average climates is 3.

And we're looking at the margins; 1 air change per hour can do wonders for preventing the spread of disease and improving air quality, compared to 0 air changes per hour.

Nevertheless, I redid your math, and found that your hypothetical home has 26,728 more BTUs of energy in its air, compared to the outside air[-1][0][1], and that the recommended furnace for such a climate should be 160,000 BTU/hr [2].

Using those numbers as a base, I find that, with an efficiency of 95%, it would require 120 (that's one hundred and twenty) air changes per hour to double heating costs.

With 60% efficiency, it would require 15 air changes per hour to double heating costs.

And it only takes a few air changes per hour to increase comfort and prevent illness.

[-1] I suddenly realized that the google search links that I used for these calculations are messy and unwieldy, so I'll summarize my calculations: (2600 ft^2) * (8 ft) represent the volume of the house; (1.225 kg / m^3) represents the density of air, (1.005 kJ/(kg * Kelvin)) represents the specific heat of air, (70 * (5/9)) represents the temperature difference you gave me, in Kelvin. Multiplying everything together, and letting Google automatically take care of unit conversions, gives me 28.2 MegaJoules of energy in the house.

[0] https://www.google.com/search?q=%282600+ft%5E2%29*%288+ft%29...

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=convert+28199142.9+joules+to...

[2] https://www.pickhvac.com/calculator/heating-btu/

Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by londons_explore on Friday May 14, 2021 @08:45AM (#27153629)
My first calculation using entirely imperial units didn't go well... I think I'll stick to metric!
Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by ddxxdd on Friday May 14, 2021 @08:59AM (#27153747)
It's unavoidable when discussing residential heating. Just use google for automatic unit conversions, and be grateful that we didn't need to invoke the cumbersome unit of "R-value" to measure insulation!
Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by infogulch on Friday May 14, 2021 @04:49PM (#27159526)
> "countercurrent heat exchangers"

Very interesting! The concept makes a lot of sense, and I was able to find some companies online that produce such a thing, often under the phrase "counterflow heat exchanger".

Frustratingly there's little details online for actual pricing, but you can find the bare exchange units on ebay for $200-300.

Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by rightbyte on Friday May 14, 2021 @06:35AM (#27152768)
> It's fascinating to see how 2 pipes of air current switch temperatures when they're in contact and moving in opposite directions.

Shouldn't the air ideally move in the same direction?

Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by ddxxdd on Friday May 14, 2021 @06:56AM (#27152896)
Nope, because they will both end up at the same temperature, namely, the average temperature halfway between the two previous temperatures.

In a countercurrent heat exchanger, the hot air will get colder and colder until it is at the same temperature as the cold air, and the cold air will get hotter and hotter until it is the same temperature as the hot air.

This is because the hot air is not warming up the same air molecules that it relies on to cool down, and the cold air is not cooling down the same air molecules that it relies on to warm up. Each current of air gives up a part of their heat/coldness, becomes colder/hotter, and then moves towards a section of pipe that's even colder/hotter than the previous section of pipe.

A picture is worth a thousand words, although it takes some staring and studying before the concept finally clicks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countercurrent_exchange#/media...

Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by rightbyte on Friday May 14, 2021 @08:12AM (#27153363)
Ah ye thank you makes sense.
Re:A paradigm shift to combat indoor respiratory infection by mrow84 on Friday May 14, 2021 @07:30AM (#27153087)
There is a diagram illustrating why not in the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countercurrent_exchange