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Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by jonnycomputer on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:16PM (#27132014)
Most informed economic commentary I've read fully expected a brief spike in inflation, but does not expect any kind of runaway inflation over the medium and long-term. I'm just not worried, especially with the twin biases of news reporting: sensationalism and favorable coverage of the views of big finance.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by dannyw on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:11PM (#27132660)
Most informed economics are worse than a coinflip at predicting the future, so you might actually want to negate their opinions to get closer to the truth. Or at the very least, disregard a speciality who consistently gets things wrong
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by uses on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:44PM (#27133074)
This is borderline trolling because you're not really saying anything specific. Mainstream modern economics doesn't "consistently get things wrong", you just might not notice or care when it consistently gets things right. Because it's boring and well, predictable.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by NoOneNew on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:20PM (#27133462)
To back up the commenter's statement: most well informed economists kept pushing that China would sell US Treasury Bonds pennies on the dollar to "ruin" the US economy.

Anyone with a half a brain and some real world business knowledge would realize: Do you really want to be the guy who mentions, let alone put into motion, that losing hundreds of billions of dollars worth of receipts to make a negotiation situation worse, is a good idea? At that, selling bonds at a discount helps open up for allied nations to suck up those bonds to make more future money themselves. Thus powering the US negotiation side even more.

And did they play the bond game? Obviously not. They're not stupid. "I'm going to burn my money just to piss you guys off!"

Seriously, many public figure economists are idiots. Not all. The good one's public discourse gets reserved to small press geopolitical publications. Even then, they always acknowledge how fickle an economy can be and how easy it is to be blindsided.

So yea, high inflation in the next 5-10 years is a real possibility, especially as the stimulus bond payments start to mount.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by lottin on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @03:05PM (#27133944)
> most well informed economists kept pushing that China would sell US Treasury Bonds pennies on the dollar

Who's saying that?

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by NoOneNew on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @03:22PM (#27134143)
So you never actually read the articles, "China's economic/negotiation weapon against Trump". CNN, MSNBC and many other news agencies were pushing that narrative.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by lottin on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @04:20PM (#27134676)
No, I don't watch CNN or MSNBC, because I'm European, but the OP was talking about "most well-informed economists", not media outlets, and I was curious who these economists are, being an economist myself.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by throw0101a on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @04:12PM (#27134569)
This story has been going on for years, and it's always been a Nothing Burger:

> Matthew Yglesias notes[1] an uptick in Very Serious People warning that China might lose confidence in America and start dumping our bonds. He focuses on China’s motives, which is useful. But the crucial point, which he touches on only briefly at the end, is that whatever China’s motives, the Chinese wouldn’t hurt us if they dumped our bonds — in fact, it would probably be good for America.

* https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/18/the-china-debt-...

* https://archive.is/4Q95O

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by mattferderer on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:13PM (#27133388)
In this case you have:

* The Fed who wants 2% inflation rate

* 12 months of inflation that were very low, dipping to 0.1%. [1]

* Re-opening of much of the economy

* Massive consumer spending

* Lots of issues with manufacturing & shipping over the past few months

* Drought effecting crop prices [2]

I don't think that counts as a coin flip.

1 - https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-infl...

2 - https://www.drought.gov/current-conditions

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by nostromo on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:19PM (#27133443)
Don't forget the counter argument:

* The largest annual increase of the money supply in the history of the US, far larger than even WWII, with no end in sight.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by lottin on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @03:20PM (#27134104)
Yeah but the money supply is an instrument of the Fed to control inflation. The fact that it has gone up indicates the Fed is attempting to increase the inflation rate, which makes sense because the rate is below the 2% target. So, I'm not sure what this argument is trying to tell us...
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by throw0101a on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @04:05PM (#27134504)
With a corresponding drop of velocity (V) off a cliff:

* https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2V

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply#Link_with_inflati...

Milton Friedman and Monetarists were wrong: velocity is not constant, and it does affect inflation.

> Indeed, from 1982 to 1985, Friedman repeat- edly predicted a major revival of inflation that never occurred. In 1982 he predicted 8 percent inflation for 1983; the outcome was around 4 percent (FORT, 03/19/84). In July 1983, Friedman wrote, “We shall be fortunate indeed if we escape either a return to double-digit inflation or renewed recession in 1984” (NW, 07/25/83). In August 1983, he said, “U.S. inflation rates will rise appreciably in 1984, although it’s not yet determined where they’ll go from there” (TSN, 08/30/83). In April 1984, Friedman said, “I believe [the CPI] will be rising in the neighborhood of 8 to 10 percent in 1985.”33 Even in November 1985, Friedman said that “Inflation is not dead. It will emerge once again and will be higher next year than it is this year. We almost surely are currently at the bottom of this inflationary episode and are likely to be starting up again” (NYDN, 11/13/85). Defying these predictions, inflation was consistently below 5 percent in every month from 1983 to 1986; moreover, apart from a brief uptick in early 1984, inflation continued to decline after 1982, and was lower in 1986 than it was in 1985.

* PDF: https://files.stlouisfed.org/files/htdocs/publications/revie...

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by jonnycomputer on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:56PM (#27133221)
Most economic predictions are not logistic, so this statement is, strictly speaking, not meaningful.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by omginternets on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:19PM (#27132042)
>favorable coverage of the views of big finance

I'm horrifically ignorant of economics. Why is the "runaway inflation" story favorable to big finance?

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by milkytron on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:39PM (#27132264)
I think what the original commenter meant was that news outlets generally echo what big finance says. Meaning that they favor the views of big finance (as opposed to favoring coverage of the views of others).
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by jonnycomputer on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:57PM (#27133229)
Yes. And they generally appear to worry over inflation more. Perhaps because inflation tends to favor debtors rather than creditors.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by patrickk on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:20PM (#27133456)
My guess is that those who run large financial institutions came of age when inflation was much higher and a difficult beast to tame. Therefore they see the inflation boogeyman around every corner even though it hasn’t been like that in a long time. (That’s not to say high inflation won’t come at some point, but so far the doom and gloom merchants have been wrong for decades).

You see this inflation mania most clearly with the ECB, which essentially is controlled by Germans. They fear a Weimar Republic-style hyperinflation above all else. So some of the policies coming out of the 2008 crisis reflected this, instead of being flexible enough to cope with the actual conditions and challenges of the day.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by NoOneNew on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:27PM (#27133520)
Yea, but let's metaphor the boogey man issue to driving a car. When you drive, you're often avoiding collisions. Mostly passively. If you drive faster than the car in front of you, you will crash. If you dont brake at a red light, you will crash. Most people dont crash most of the time because they respect the threat. You cant just go, "you know, I haven't crashed in 5 years. I dont have to brake at this red light." Sure, inflation issues aren't that prevalent in the past few decades. Doesn't mean you stop assuming it's not a possibility. You do things to avoid it. The longer you do that, the longer you avoid problems. You cant stop your precautions just because it's been a while, then whine why the problem reemerged.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by patrickk on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:56PM (#27133841)
I never said it’s no longer a possibility. Just that for every news event that happens, there is an immediate chorus of “inflation!!!!” no matter the circumstances. Some economists argue that there is indeed considerable inflation right now- except it’s in financial assets owned mostly by the wealthy, like the stock market trading at high P/Es, housing (inflated in multiple countries, not just the US due to easy credit). There was also a headline recently that VC investing is record high at the moment. So there’s inflation, just not in consumer staples.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by nostromo on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:40PM (#27133653)
The reason it is so feared is because it's next to impossible to contain once it starts without causing massive economic hardship.

In fact, the Fed could likely do next to nothing about inflation with our country's current debt levels.

Even at a historically average rate of 8%, our federal government would either go bankrupt, cut most spending, or massively raise taxes, causing a severe economic retraction. (Our $26T in debt would require half of the entire federal budget to service our debt at such rates.)

Many of our largest corporations would also fold, unable to service their massive debts. It'd be a disaster.

That's why people fear runaway inflation, even if it hasn't been a problem for several decades. Once you can identify it as a problem, it's too late.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by csomar on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:46PM (#27133735)
Isn't it why Japan, Europe and now the USA have 0/negative rates? The government literally makes money to borrow money. They can't default with negative or zero rates. They are basically being bailed out by the "economy".

It's sensible to be afraid of hyper-inflation. At some point the economic actors are going to be fed up with it and off-load their investments.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by omginternets on Thursday May 13, 2021 @11:55AM (#27143581)
>The reason it is so feared is because it's next to impossible to contain once it starts without causing massive economic hardship.

What's the process for containing inflation, and what's its mechanism of action?

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by igorkraw on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:27PM (#27132129)
Invest into stocks to save yourself from inflation maybe?
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by heyparkerj on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:42PM (#27133039)
From what I've been reading (disclaimer - over the past few hours) the types of stocks you target during periods of inflation changes. You're also playing a bit of a guessing game, because your return will be less than other investments if an inflationary period does not actually realize.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by nightski on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:50PM (#27133146)
This is what makes broad index funds so attractive. VTI, VXUS, etc...
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by RosanaAnaDana on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:43PM (#27133059)
Buy real property if you can.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by the_fire_friar on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:44PM (#27133703)
Not sure why this is down voted. Real estate is a common hedge against inflation. It's just much more complex of an investment vehicle and you can't just jump in and out of real estate like you can stocks.

You could opt for a REIT instead.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/reit.asp

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by staticman2 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @04:32PM (#27134807)
While I don't know why it was downvoted "Buy real property if you can" is pretty crummy advice, unless you think an investor doesn't have to do any due diligence and should "just buy" stuff.

How do you know what property to buy? How much property should you own as a percent of your net worth? What is the expected return of the property? What is the likelyhood you will lose money on the property versus the likelyhood you will make money?

Those are all important questions not addressed by "Buy real property if you can"

As for Reits, there's not a lot of financial advisors advocating high investments in Reits. For example the Vanguard Target Retirement fund of funds have very little. The Schwab Intelligent Portfolio seem to call for 5% REITS in an example I pulled up online.

Maybe you know something Vanguard and Schwab does not, but again, there's that question of due diligence.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by jonnycomputer on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @04:22PM (#27134690)
in the long term real estate is the winner.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by eplanit on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:05PM (#27133312)
You forgot a bias: consistently favorable reporting on the Biden administration.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by option on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:27PM (#27132146)
more than 20% of all US dollars that ever existed were created in the last 2 years and there are “no worries”? I’d like to learn more why.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by dragonwriter on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:11PM (#27133366)
> more than 20% of all US dollars that ever existed were created in the last 2 years and there are “no worries”? I’d like to learn more why.

Because they were created to fight deflation (only barely successfully, as a year ago unadjusted inflation was about 0 and within seasonal adjustment it was negative) and if there are signs of sustained rather than transitory inflation, the Fed will suck them right back up.

It’s like people think monetary policy either only happens in the past or only happens in one direction.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by eloff on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:41PM (#27133673)
You can't take the official inflation numbers at face value. If you look at real inflation it's been closer to 4-5% a year since 2009.

Which means if you had $100,000 in cash under your mattress in 2009, you can now generally buy half as much with it. Less in education, healthcare. More in consumer tech. About half in Big Macs or housing.

Source: https://www.lynalden.com/inflation/

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by eloff on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:04PM (#27135136)
It's too late to edit this now, but broad money supply increased at 5% per year. Official CPI says that broad prices rose by about 2.5% per year on average since 1990, while the source I linked thinks there’s a good case that it’s closer to 3% or more. In other words, prices went up more like 150% (2.5x) rather than 100% (2x) in total during that three decade compounded annual period.

4-5% annualized inflation would be crazy - but some things have gone up more than that. If your a young person starting out in need of an education and a home - you'll see more than 3% inflation for yourself personally.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by throw0101a on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @04:22PM (#27134689)
> If you look at real inflation it's been closer to 4-5% a year since 2009.

No, it has not:

* https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2021/01/inflation-truthers/

Given that GDP growth has averaged 2% per year, if inflation was 4-5% that would mean the US economy was having 2-3% deflation in real terms.

During the economic devastation of 2009 there was negative 0.35% inflation. Can you imagine what kind of economic apocalypse would occur with negative 2%?

What you are saying makes no sense whatsoever.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by dragonwriter on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @04:35PM (#27134833)
> Given that GDP growth has averaged 2% per year, if inflation was 4-5% that would mean the US economy was having 2-3% deflation in real terms.

Pedantic, but the that would be “contraction” not “deflation”. (Contraction = declining real output, deflation = declining nominal prices.)

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by eloff on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @05:08PM (#27135167)
Yes, sorry my memory betrayed me. It's about 3%/year over the last 30 years according to the source. I posted a correction.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by jgalt212 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:31PM (#27133573)
> It’s like people think monetary policy either only happens in the past or only happens in one direction.

You can make a very strong argument that monetary policy for the last 20 years has has little effect on CPI and strong effects on asset prices.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by dragonwriter on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:37PM (#27133623)
> You can make a very strong argument that monetary policy for the last 20 years has has little effect on CPI and strong effects on asset prices.

If you disagree with policymakers about what the likely course of inflation would have been without the policy intervention, maybe, but I've yet to see anyone make the argument for that disagreement, just assert it as if it were an undisputable fact. So, yeah, if you assume the deflation QE was ddsigned to fight would not have happened without QE, then you are forced to conclude that the low with-QE inflation meant QE didn’t cause inflation beyond what would have existed without it. But that’s largely just assuming the conclusion.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by jgalt212 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @03:25PM (#27134178)
Here's what indisputable: If you gift money to bondholders, bond prices will go up. If you gift money to food buyers, the price of food will go up.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by ethbr0 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:38PM (#27132252)
Good question!

Because inflation is the sum of money supply + velocity + consumer expectations + goods production + international monetary markets?

Which explains why historical attempts to point to any one and say "Inflation is coming / not coming!" have fared poorly.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by zpeti on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:10PM (#27132639)
Historical: Except in those cases most printed money went to banks, buying their bad loans. Which had already affected house prices by 2008, and only affected asset and commodity prices, which did rise in price since 2008.

This time round you have more and more stimulus going to ordinary people, who will spend it on ordinary goods like food. That will create a different type of inflation.

(I’m not endorsing either type of bailout/stimulus btw)

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by ethbr0 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:39PM (#27133001)
It's a fair point. But on the other hand, we had substantially depressed demand in a lot of industries for a year+ due to the pandemic.

And while some of that money found alternate outlets (home improvement, streaming services [0]), the uptick in savings indicated a lot of it pooled [1], and the postponed evictions and rent / loan payments resulted in delayed debt obligations (which are difficult to find numbers on, in total?).

So as usual, arrows pointing both ways.

[0] https://www.familyhandyman.com/article/home-improvement-spen...

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=DXqc (2019-2021 savings rate)

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by RC_ITR on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:21PM (#27133463)
Boy would you be surprised to see that food inflation is decelerating and has been since the stimulus started!

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CPIUFDSL

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by zpeti on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @03:40PM (#27134311)
Have you seen the Bloomberg agricultural price index recently?
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by RC_ITR on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:59PM (#27136214)
Do me a favor.

Log into your terminal, type in 'BCOMAGSP Index'. Hit Go. Then hit 'Max.'

Look at the spike in 2010.

Then tell me about the runaway food inflation that happened then.

EDIT: Just to be clear on my point: Yes I agree that people are hedging inflation via commodity futures (like they do after most recessions), but that doesn't mean they're right. In the same way stock prices are often a bad indication of a company's actual value.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by arberx on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:38PM (#27132257)
Because no one was/is spending: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2V
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by jonnycomputer on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @02:02PM (#27133286)
I know at least 3 households who spent all their stimulus dollars paying down debt. And those are the only households I know how they spent it, so 100%.

Decreasing debt to income ratio will stimulate demand, but not in a shock like fashion. Most people don't want to jump back into debt again.

People with big medical bills (because of COVID for example), used it to pay off their medical debts.

People with big credit card debt, student loan debt, car loan debt, mortgages, probably used a lot of it to pay that off.

Other than that, people with homes and cars might have deferred repairs and renovations. So some of that is going to where it would have gone anyway. And why price of wood skyrocketed.

Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by 01100011 on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:36PM (#27132227)
I have heard people claim that QE is disinflationary because the dollars are tied up and don't add velocity but I haven't grokked their reasons why.
Re:Consumer Prices in U.S. Increase by Most Since 2009 by pram on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @01:11PM (#27132665)
QE and the repo operations the Fed does are “providing liquidity” to activity that would (presumably) normally happen anyway. I’d assume this would be the reason. You can argue the activity wouldn’t happen if interest rates weren’t kept artificially low.

Another thing is these security purchases are largely insulated from what is used to calculate inflation. These are exchanges between banks and funds and similar.