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Re:A SpaceX booster now trails only 4 space shuttles in flig... by ClumsyPilot on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @04:07PM (#27122845)
Mars is considered to be the hardest planet to land on in the entire solar system, you have to carry a heatshield or you will burn to a crisp, but it's so thin you still have to land propulsively using rockets. You definitely need to sacrifice less spacecraft mass to land on the moon

Also there is some water on the moon so you can make rocket fuel, though how much exactly remains an open question

Re:A SpaceX booster now trails only 4 space shuttles in flig... by nickik on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @12:03AM (#27126460)
> Mars is considered to be the hardest planet to land on in the entire solar system

Questionable.

> but it's so thin you still have to land propulsively using rockets

You have to do the same on earth. Starship sized vehicles have to land on earth propulsively too.

Sure, you can do somewhat larger payloads to Orbit without engines but for large things you need to have real engines.

> You definitely need to sacrifice less spacecraft mass to land on the moon

On the moon you can't aerobrake, that is far worse.

> Also there is some water on the moon so you can make rocket fuel, though how much exactly remains an open question

There is a huge difference. Water on the moon has to be mined from permanently shadowed craters. The water is frozen and incredibly hard, its more like mining stone on earth.

On Mars there are places where you can literally land, drill down and make yourself an underground lake pretty easily. Or land basically right on an ice sheet.

On the moon you need to figure out how to get energy down into the crater, you need sophisticated mining equipment, all that equipment needs to handle incredibly low temperatures.

Mars comparatively is not so far away from earth in terms of temperature for your equipment.

In summation, in-situ for rocket fuel/water is far, far easier on Mars.

Re:A SpaceX booster now trails only 4 space shuttles in flig... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @06:23AM (#27128666)
Did you just make up the entire passage about ice strength? Why do you feel the need to do that?

Ice is 0.5 Mpa stong in the freezer and 2 Mpa at absolute zero.

Thats tensile strenght of chalk and limestone - you can get that with a shovel. Tensile strength of rock is measured in Hundreds of MPA.

The smallest, wimpiest digger you can find can handle it.

Re:A SpaceX booster now trails only 4 space shuttles in flig... by nickik on Wednesday May 12, 2021 @07:05AM (#27128892)
Tests have shown then depending on the situation lunar regolith can go up 80MPa. And the more water is contained, the harder it gets. You get low yield from that, around 10%. So you need to mine a pretty large amount and process it.

So you need to create excavator that operate inside a creator that can operate at extrem temperatures.

On Mars you can literally do what we already do at the South Pole, drill a hole and make it warm.

Its multiple orders of magnitude easier.

Re:A SpaceX booster now trails only 4 space shuttles in flig... by maccam94 on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @06:19PM (#27124315)
Water yes, but I haven't seen anything about CO2 so I think you're stuck with hydrogen-oxygen engines (which have different tradeoffs than methane-oxygen engines).

https://everydayastronaut.com/raptor-engine/ (scroll down to the text immediately above the RP1/Methane/Hydrogen chart)

Re:A SpaceX booster now trails only 4 space shuttles in flig... by rbanffy on Tuesday May 11, 2021 @07:15PM (#27124819)
There is a lot of oxygen on the Moon (combined with silicon and aluminum), but carbon is not readily available, so it'd be more favorable to hydrolox engines.