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Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by acituan on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @11:51PM (#27058978)
> People who live paycheck-to-paycheck with family or medical issues wouldn't agree with you.

You wouldn't know if you were talking to such a person right now without making a circular argument such that "a person without privilege cannot think the world is an OK place and since they think that they must be a person of privilege". Existence of depression and anxiety across all socioeconomic strata proves that logic wrong.

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by moralestapia on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @11:59PM (#27059041)
>Existence of depression and anxiety across all socioeconomic strata proves that logic wrong.

Further supporting the argument that the world is not "mostly an OK place".

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by lazide on Thursday May 06, 2021 @02:11AM (#27059732)
Hardly - rather that we normalize to whatever is going on in our environment, perceiving risk, danger, ok or not ok, etc. in a relative sense not an absolute one (minus adaptation time).

There is decently solid evidence too that where someone lands on the distribution for a given environment is mostly set at an early age, often with a strong genetic component.

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by acituan on Thursday May 06, 2021 @02:12AM (#27059744)
In the case of depression and anxiety, at least in the view of CBT, there is always some sort of cognitive distortion at play. In other words, if the mental anguish originates from having taken a distorted view of the world, it wouldn't tell us anything if the world was an OK place or not to begin with.
Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by tnzm on Thursday May 06, 2021 @03:51AM (#27060275)
The question that bothers me is whether the existence of such distorted views of the world tells us something about the world. After all, they did not arise in isolation - what distorted that person's perception and what's preventing it from correcting itself?
Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by 2cb on Thursday May 06, 2021 @04:28AM (#27060498)
This is an interesting thought but the answer can be as simple as cognitive biases. The world around you could be a literal utopia but the depressed mind would still think life is hopeless.
Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by joeberon on Thursday May 06, 2021 @04:07AM (#27060384)
The mind is the world though. If the mind is distorted, the world is distorted. They can't really be considered separate, because for that being their mind is the true reality.
Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by themaninthedark on Thursday May 06, 2021 @11:09AM (#27064363)
Depression and anxiety are completely internal reactions, how oneself responds to the world. It does not matter if the world is good or not if your reaction is broken.

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization." - Agent Smith

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by stonogo on Thursday May 06, 2021 @12:08AM (#27059088)
No, there is no circular argument. If someone thinks the world is an OK place, either they're speaking from a position of privilege or they are lying. Assuming privilege is in this case the kindest interpretation of their words.
Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by acituan on Thursday May 06, 2021 @01:59AM (#27059664)
> either they're speaking from a position of privilege or they are lying

I am not bothered that this is a false dichotomy as much as the fact that, intentional or not, it forbids taking a positive view of the world to anyone who also happens to be materially underprivileged.

> Men are disturbed not by things, but by the view which they take of them. -Epictetus, Greek-born slave

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by h0l0cube on Thursday May 06, 2021 @02:53AM (#27059939)
> Epictetus, Greek-born slave

Just to clarify:

> He spent his youth as a slave in Rome to Epaphroditos, a wealthy freedman and secretary to Nero.

> Epictetus obtained his freedom sometime after the death of Nero in AD 68

He was a slave to people of wealth and power, that permitted him to study philosophy, and was freed around 18 years of age. So it would be disingenuous to imply Epictetus had the perspective of an impoverished slave when he founded his own school of philosophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epictetus

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by acituan on Thursday May 06, 2021 @04:10AM (#27060397)
> So it would be disingenuous to imply Epictetus had the perspective of an impoverished slave when he founded his own school of philosophy.

Good thing is that I made no such implication. It would be equally disingenuous however to imply that his school of philosophy would be completely isolated from the experience of his formative years as a slave.

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by h0l0cube on Thursday May 06, 2021 @04:23AM (#27060472)
> Good thing is that I made no such implication

Most people simply attribute the author of the quote without qualifying or emphasizing some aspect of their life. So it seems arbitrary to mention this without any rhetorical motivation. Could have well said Greek Stoic Philosopher, which is mostly what he's known for and what the hive-mind of Wikipedia settled on

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by _huayra_ on Thursday May 06, 2021 @01:02AM (#27059330)
Indeed. It is incredibly telling when people attempt to equilibrate "I'm anxious because I'm not sure if I'll be promoted to senior dev this quarter" to "I'm anxious because I cannot feed my family". As someone who has come from the latter circumstances to the former (through a lot of luck and sweat), I can tell you that having the same roof over my head for long periods of time and not having to carefully budget every time I go grocery shopping is far more beneficial than most people would realize.
Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by lazide on Thursday May 06, 2021 @02:15AM (#27059762)
It’s pointing out that while objectively different, subjectively it’s often the same emotional weight - as counter intuitive as it may be - especially for those that don’t have prior experience or calibration in the objectively more serious environment.

In my experience (as someone who grew up with extensive food insecurity, parents who barely kept the family afloat, etc.), it’s hard NOT to have the bar shift too if you end up in a cushier place later. The promo can feel as bad as it used to feel not knowing where food was coming from, even if objectively that is ridiculous.

We’re very adaptable even if sometimes weirdly so.

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by Aerroon on Thursday May 06, 2021 @03:57AM (#27060311)
>It’s pointing out that while objectively different, subjectively it’s often the same emotional weight - as counter intuitive as it may be - especially for those that don’t have prior experience or calibration in the objectively more serious environment.

This seems like incredibly useful behavior. When things improve it allows us to tackle new problems with similar conviction as before. It also helps us not get completely overwhelmed when we end up in worse and worse situations.

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by lazide on Thursday May 06, 2021 @12:30PM (#27065695)
It is definitely a useful survival trait, and it certainly helps with the progress of the species.

Man does it suck sometimes though if you’re on the ‘push even if it hurts’ part of the spectrum!

Something that has helped me over time is the awareness that the stories we tell (both ourselves and others) are almost always post-facto attempts to rationalize what we fundamentally do not understand or control (our own thoughts and reactions, and those of others).

This is often for safety - both the illusion of control for ourselves, and to spin a safe and beneficial story for others to magnify the good or hide the bad of what happened. It gets even more interesting when the possibility of influencing others (or yourself!) to your benefit comes into play. Also a necessary and useful survival trait! There are a great many things it is helpful to believe that may be plainly contradicted by evidence.

If you cut away the noise produced by this process, ignore what people say, and look at action/reaction and reverse engineer it a bit - it almost always produces a far more reliable and predictable model for understanding people and the world overall.

Either way it takes a lot of experience and data points to have any accuracy, so it’s going to be confusing as hell for a long time. Especially if you haven’t figured out that almost everything anyone says (especially yourself!) is fundamentally self serving and post-facto - not due to malice even (though that happens), but because that’s the way it has to work!

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by _huayra_ on Thursday May 06, 2021 @03:40AM (#27060207)
I was not equipped for the type of psychological distress that comes from truly competitive academic / job endeavors. After acing my easy high school and going to a top uni for CS I became really despondent. I just felt like there should come a point when I "made it" and don't have any worries anymore.

Through a lot of reading and therapy I got better, but I agree that there is a tendency to move the goalposts and not be grateful for what one has. Even though it is more materially distressing to not know if/where/how one will eat, the problems usually have tangible solutions (e.g. go to grandma's house to eat...again, or know a sympathetic employee at some chain restaurant who will give you a bunch of unsold food that would otherwise be tossed). The problems to "how do I make the leap to become a senior dev?" are much more nebulous and uncertain, and indeed that is more psychologically distressing.

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by BeetleB on Thursday May 06, 2021 @03:14AM (#27060065)
> It is incredibly telling when people attempt to equilibrate "I'm anxious because I'm not sure if I'll be promoted to senior dev this quarter" to "I'm anxious because I cannot feed my family".

Like it or not, the reality is that for some people, the anxiety of the latter is much greater than the anxiety some other people experience for the former.

Your experience may be the norm, but it is not all-encompassing, and your life experience doesn't give you the authority to speak on their behalf. While your experience and perspective may be the more common one, you are also dismissing a fair amount of suffering that many have.

There are people not far from me who handled poverty and war fairly well, became doctors, and eventually attempted/committed suicide because of the pressures on the job. One of the survivors even said that poverty and war were much simpler to comprehend than the hostility of his fellow doctors and the environment he worked in.

And no, it wasn't because of his background. Several of his coworkers attempted/committed suicide while coming from privileged backgrounds.

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by sundvor on Thursday May 06, 2021 @06:45AM (#27061332)
My condolences.

You may find this interesting:

https://theresilienceproject.com.au/about/

Re:LiveLeak shuts down after 15 years online by StavrosK on Thursday May 06, 2021 @04:39AM (#27060553)
This is exactly the No True Scotsman. "No true unprivileged person would think this".

By your logic, if a slave who is tortured every day thinks the world is generally an OK place but his situation specifically sucks, they're speaking from a position of privilege.