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Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by eloff on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @01:29PM (#27040087)
Honestly because neither feminists nor men's rights activists want equality, despite whatever they purport to be about.

Just like there's a political spectrum with the crazies at the edges of both left and right, there is also a spectrum on gender issues, race, or any other social issue. The crazies are to be found at the edges of that, again on both sides.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by michaelpb on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @01:46PM (#27040314)
The problem with this line of thought is that some of the "crazies at the edge" in the past are the sensible, moderate ideas that you no doubt hold right now. For example, viewing slavery as an evil institution was considered the "crazies at the edge" opinion in the early-mid 1800s in the US, as opposed to the dominant opinion among "sensible" abolitionists that slavery was personal sin that requires a redemption process (like drinking). In some cases, this change of sentiment can take only a couple decades: See opinion polling on gay marriage or weed legalization.

This is why both-sides-ing or argument to moderation is not really a useful or convincing rhetorical device.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by eloff on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:48PM (#27041288)
Nothing about what I said means that values are static over time or that the balance can't shift. It's true that today's crazies at the edge might be tomorrows center - although I find that thought troubling!

But make no mistake, the extremes at both ends harbor dangerous crazies. In politics, while the evils of the right are obvious and dangerous, the evils of the left are much more seductive but have been just as dangerous this past century (think fascists vs communists).

On gender issues, the incels are clearly unhinged. But so are the extreme feminists.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by eloff on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:58PM (#27043908)
Just an aside, I've noticed that anything I post criticizing the right gets me upvotes on HN. Anything criticizing the left is much more controversial. I wonder how HN leans as a whole?

I view myself as left of center, but not left enough by the standards of this community.

I just find that interesting.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by michaelpb on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:04PM (#27044442)
I've have had the opposite observation, probably has a lot to do with whoever is in the particular thread
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by toyg on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:29PM (#27040989)
Both you and parent are right, but you have to acknowledge that extremists and totalitarians do exist.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by krastanov on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:38PM (#27041134)
"you have to acknowledge that extremists and totalitarians do exist" is a cheap rhetorical device to sneak in "both sides are the same" fallacies. Yes, of course there are crazies in any political movement, demographic, subculture, or other group. Elevating these crazies to the first thing mentioned when discussing the actual substance of the beliefs of a group is silly at best, but more frequently it is simply a dishonest distraction. This is not a slippery slope (also typically a fallacy in practice).
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by michaelpb on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:53PM (#27043359)
Yeah, exactly!

It's also simply not a useful type of statement even when made in good faith. It assumes all issues fit on scales. For example, there are people today who call themselves feminists, and have extremely different views about LGBTQ+ rights compared to others who call themselves feminist (notably around the BTQ+ part). I really don't know who is the more "extreme", since that implies that I am referencing an agreed upon "center" which these positions differ from, and that simply doesn't exist. There is no agreed upon "center" for anything. Both claim to be feminists, and claim the other side is wrong, and neither would consider the other either more "extreme" or more "centrist".

This is just one example, but I would argue that this holds true in nearly every case: Reducing something to a scale with "extremes" on each side mostly just shows how the speaker perceives other positions and is otherwise not very useful.

CS stuff: IMO a better mental model would be non-Cartesian. Perhaps a weighted graph, where the vertices are ideologies (or, to be more granular, people), and the edge-weights represent some fuzzy metric of overlap of beliefs.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by betwixthewires on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:01PM (#27043418)
I think that it is just as important to talk about the extremes and the bad ideas as it is to talk about the good ones. We bring up the extremes because they're there, and they can be tempting, and so we should warn each other about them. Saying what you're saying usually (but not always) is an attempt to not address the usually perfectly reasonable point one is responding to without outright defending the extremes. Extreme ideas do need to be pointed out precisely to do what you want: prevent the reasonable discussion from becoming one between two extremes.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by krastanov on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:08PM (#27043481)
You are completely right in the appropriate context: when talking about ideology A we should consider more than just its most standard version. But when comparing ideology A and ideology B, focusing on the extremes of ideology A while considering only the middle ground of ideology B (what happened in this thread) is more or less whataboutism.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by eloff on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:50PM (#27041325)
To be clear, I'm not saying both sides are the same - that's a value judgment. But it's obviously not a one side is right and the other is wrong situation either.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by krastanov on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @01:41PM (#27040251)
Are you equating reasonableness of the *average* person that self-identifies as feminist and the *average* men's-rights-advocate?
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by eloff on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:54PM (#27041379)
No, because men's rights advocates are a smaller group further to an extreme end of the spectrum. Let's be generous and say it's 0.2 % of the population. Are the most extreme 0.2% of the population identifying as feminists just as unhinged? Could be. I don't think either of us could say for sure, but it's plausible. There's some value judgments to be made there. But there are crazies on both sides of the issue - that's self evident, right?
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by textgel on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:06PM (#27040593)
Considering the year on year decrease in women who identify with the movement, its fairly clear anyone who would describe said movement as "reasonable" would no doubt hold the traits inherent in the movement that so many find despicable.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by krastanov on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:33PM (#27041049)
You are making some pretty wild misrepresentations of reality: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/07/07/a-centu...

The closest thing I can find to your interpretation is that women of color are less probable to adopt the term "feminist" because they are less probable to feel the movement has done enough for them.

I do not know who has convinced you of an alternative definition of the word, but feminism means "believing in equal treatment / equal opportunity / etc".

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by textgel on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @02:49PM (#27041319)
Literally the first google result of "women identifying as feminst" https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/american-women-and-feminism

And plenty more for the willing student; however an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement might understandably place some difficulty on those in need of finding these things.

And funnily enough the definition of a group has nothing to do with how it behaves; or are you suddenly going to proudly identify as a mens rights activist? I suppose its just as well that naming North Korea a democratic peoples republic magically fixed the place overnight as well.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by Kaze404 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @03:13PM (#27041638)
> an ideology that considers "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement

Citation needed

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by textgel on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @03:28PM (#27041825)
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by Kaze404 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @04:31PM (#27042516)
You can find footage of people defending literally any controversial take you might have. Doesn't mean there are enough subscribers to consider their position.
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Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by Apocryphon on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:49PM (#27043319)
Highlighting one extreme statement in a huge ideological umbrella framework does not indict the entire ideology, as your original sentence claimed.

Is that controversial statement a common one in that ideology? An official one? Do many groups from that ideology subscribe to it?

You keep using the phrase "feminism", a memeplex that's as massive and diverse as any social movement, political ideology, or religion. But it's easy to oversimplify and be reductive towards such a memeplex, which includes members as diverse as Susan B. Anthony and Gloria Steinem, Zoe Quinn and Ariel Levy, Andrew Dworkin and Malala Yousafzai. You have to understand when dealing with a hugely variegated ideology it's unhelpful to speak in absolutes.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by textgel on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:24PM (#27043620)
No but the groups behaviour however does; behaviour illustrated in just one example I have given. And I never claimed one example was what it took to make the situation, I stated the situation and gave an example when pressed for evidence.

The "memeplex" offers no such nuance to any of those that they oppose; and for all the claimed diversity within the movement the resultant behaviour remains the same.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by Apocryphon on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:39PM (#27043748)
> The "memeplex" offers no such nuance to any of those that they oppose; and for all the claimed diversity within the movement the resultant behaviour remains the same.

On the contrary, memeplex indicates quantity, size. A massive ideology with a thousand schools of thought inside. J.K. Rowling and Charlotte Clymer both identify as feminists. So do both Naomi Wu and Sarah Jeong. Such an umbrella term of ideologies contains myriads of sub-ideologies, many of them often in direct competition and contradiction with each other. To judge such an umbrella based on a single facet is to equate all of Islam to Salafi jihadism, or all of Christianity to Joel Osteen. It would seem that I am not the one operating without nuance, in this discussion.

> behaviour illustrated in just one example I have given.

A single statement from a single video? Perhaps that's the measure by how you judge all ideologies, but most do not subscribe to that heuristic.

> I stated the situation and gave an example when pressed for evidence.

And thus it is up to you to further prove that such evidence is indicative of the ideology, broadly.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by textgel on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @04:00AM (#27047323)
You can feel whatever you want about what it indicates, none opposed the worst aspects of their group, most supported them when pressed, most subscribe to a number of malicious beliefs and behaviours; you are welcome to show evidence where they dont. And again they offer no such nuance to those they disagree with so combined with the above none shall be offered in return.

The groups public behaviour indicates the ideology just fine; and when a group becomes publicly malicious enough on a large enough scale the onus is on the defence (eg its a given the nazis were evil; someone defending them doesn't get to come in and just hysterically scream "show me the evidence" because its public knowledge).

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by Apocryphon on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @11:46AM (#27051401)
There's no feelings involved, only hard facts and cold logic. Comprehensive evidence has not been demonstrated on the other side; only irrational emotion. Argument from outrage is fallacious and has no bearing on reasoned debate. Allegations of public maliciousness must be demonstrated; attempts to claim such exists a priori without actual demonstration is an attempt to engage in the big lie. You have undercut your own position, sir.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by textgel on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @12:11PM (#27051779)
You have presented no hard facts or logic. As stated, the groups public behaviour is consistent and malicious enough to be common knowledge. If you can't follow that logic then how can you hope to have an opinion on what is or isn't fact and logic. Or is this another attempt to redefine words for malicious use? Something far from uncommon within said group.

We have seen it over and over again in universities, in the corporate world. We have seen it in their numerous attempts to stifle free speech and to abolish right to fair trial. We have seen it in their uniform hypocrisy (were gendered insults still considered bad or is that mansplaining?) We have seen it in the trope of sex predators using the identity as a social shield for themselves.

You are being a denier at this stage.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by Apocryphon on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @01:33PM (#27052973)
You need to actually present evidence, saying things just are, don't make them so.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by textgel on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @07:15PM (#27057126)
Re-read the comment; saying things just aren't, don't make them so.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by Kaze404 on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:52PM (#27043858)
I'm not surprised these conversations are predictable to you, if every time you twist the other person's argument into one that fits the narrative.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by textgel on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @06:04AM (#27048092)
Stating reality I'm afraid to tell you isn't twisting to fit a narrative, but again, subscribers to an ideology who find "men are on average taller and stronger than women" to be a controversial statement will no doubt struggle with this as well.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by krastanov on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @03:27PM (#27041822)
Could you spell out how the link you shared says anything about "year on year decrease" or anything about the movement being viewed as "despicable". Especially in the context of your very reference saying that the results depend significantly on how the question is phrased?
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by textgel on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @03:37PM (#27041932)
Ask yourself if you or other people would be more comfortable identifying as feminists publicly now as opposed to 5/10 years ago; that'll give you answer 1.

As for answer 2, I've shown what basic searches can come up with. "why im not a feminst" might give you what you're looking for.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by michaelpb on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:04PM (#27043450)
Not OP, but Answer 1: Yes, it's anecdotal but you definitely see the trend.

Answer 2: So I did the Google search as you requested, and read about the book [1]. I hadn't heard of it but it looks interesting, thanks for recommending. From what I can tell, it's central claim is that feminism has an image problem due to it being co-opted by the US right-wing which she calls "choice feminism", and the remedy is a need to return to a leftist concept of what she calls "radical feminism". Is that what you're saying?

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-Am-Not-Feminist-Manifesto/dp/1612...

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by textgel on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @06:33PM (#27043698)
A full on reading into one particular book is probably going above and beyond (though I cant immediately see anything about right wing co-option on a skim read of that particular one; the general criticism at the moment seems to centre on the radical lefts takeover).

The search for me at least brings a number of articles which highlight common criticisms of the movement such as rampant sexism, advocacy for abolition of basic rights (free speech, right to fair trial etc), general hypocrisy and bad faith action (see the Cathy Newman vs Jordan Peterson interview for a great example of this)

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by michaelpb on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:00PM (#27044413)
Oh, so for an incognito search with clear cookies in my locale (bay area), all you get for 1-5 pages or so with the search term you provided is the book and reviews and articles discussing it (with and without quotes): https://google.com/search?q=%22why+i+am+not+a+feminist%22

Perhaps when you search with your normal Google account it's skewing to different results. This particular book and the articles discussing it are critiquing modern feminist movements as too conservative, from what you perhaps would call a "radical left" perspective. I find it interesting that this is the exact opposite of "the general criticism at the moment seems to centre on the radical lefts takeover"!

I personally feel my incognito Google search captures the current zeitgeist better than your search, that people are fed up with conservatives and want a "radical, fearless call for revolution" as Google's auto-summary of my search put it. That said, ultimately it's all "bubbles" all the way down, as there's no such thing as a so-called "algorithm" (ranking formula, etc) free from ideology, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by textgel on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @04:06AM (#27047377)
Can you point to me the bit where its criticising it for being too conservative? Not saying its not there but I'm not seeing it.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by michaelpb on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @08:49PM (#27057866)
On Amazon it's described by Jacobin (a leftwing magazine in the US popular with Bernie supporters etc): “A searing critique… a necessary contribution to the effort to push contemporary social justice movements further to the left and to weave an understanding of class politics into modern identity-based movements in order to build a radical politics of solidarity.”

All the other summaries on Amazon are similar, i.e. the very top description (New Yorker): "The point of 'Why I Am Not a Feminist' isn’t really that Crispin is not a feminist; it’s that she has no interest in being a part of a club that has opened its doors and lost sight of its politics—a club that would, if she weren’t so busy disavowing it, invite Kellyanne Conway in"

Having never read the book or even heard of the author until you introduced it to me I don't care one way or the other, but it's clear from a reading of these descriptions that her book is a critique from the left.

Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by eloff on Wednesday May 05, 2021 @10:25AM (#27050250)
In defence of the OP, I've also heard that less women are identifying as feminists because they feel the movement has lost its way somewhat. It seems like there's some debate if that's true or just wrong things that people repeat. I've never seen numbers one way or another - and your link doesn't present numbers either, it talks about gender equality not whether more or less women identify as feminist.
Re:On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness by etripe on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @03:12PM (#27041627)
> feminism means "believing in equal treatment / equal opportunity / etc

While this might be what feminists like to tell themselves, that is untrue. Feminism is (and can only ever be) the movement asserting women's rights in society. It is unlikely to (and doesn't) advocate for the abolition of advantages women enjoy, like the tax disparity, criminal sentencing disparity or child custody disparity. It is also increasingly uninterested in the male perspective, further reducing its utility.

MRAs, while too androcentric as well, are a younger movement. Like the first wave of feminism, it's focusing on today's disparities. Also like feminism, it has its elements of disdain for the other perspective. And finally, like feminism, men's rights can never be anything but a narrowly focused movement ensuring men aren't treated less than women.

The word you're looking for is egalitarian.