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Re:Rural purge by ipnon on Monday May 03, 2021 @10:57AM (#27025854)
Another phenomenon that accelerated in the early 1970s is the bifurcation of the American public into a cognitive elite and cognitive normal. Colleges became exceedingly efficient at filtering entrants by IQ, with the typical college student 1 standard deviation above the mean IQ, and with some prestigious colleges like Harvard having an average student multiple SDs above the mean. Simultaneously business administration became the purview of the same cognitive elite.

Could the rural purge have been the result of network executives alienated and at odds with the viewership they were nominally at the behest of?

Urbanization did not increase significantly at this time, so it seems cultural factors are the better explanation.

Re:Rural purge by glaukopis on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:23AM (#27026267)
A nitpick orthogonal to your main point, but I would argue anecdotally that there's no way elite schools have an average undergraduate IQ "multiple standard deviations" above the mean - unless by multiple, you mean "two". Any integer over that, and at 4,000,000 students graduating high school a year, and 3sigma working out to ~1/1000, there literally wouldn't be enough smart kids to go around, especially considering a majority of those students probably don't go to T10 schools anyways due to the fact that college isn't an idealized market.

Having gone to an elite school for undergrad, I'd argue most students were around 2sigma or slightly below, but almost universally also had 2sigma levels of work ethic, self-discipline, and goal-seeking.

Re:Rural purge by germinalphrase on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:55AM (#27026674)
I did not go to an elite university though I have family members who did. The eye general attitude seems to be that “the smart kids at your high school were probably just as smart as the kids at [Harvard], but at [Harvard] all the kids are that smart”.
Re:Rural purge by kragen on Monday May 03, 2021 @02:25PM (#27028820)
Only if Harvard's admissions don't work very well—for example, because intelligence isn't scalar or is hard to measure, or because they use the wrong measurements, or because they get turned down by a lot of kids they admit, or because a lot of kids they would admit aren't applying. My high school had 2000 students, which I think is typical to large in the US. If we're talking about multiple smart kids at an "average" 1000-person high school, then those are the top 1/500 or top 1/250 of the population. Harvard admits about 2000 students per year and enrolls about 1700 of them, about ⅞ from the US. That's about 1/2000 of the 4-million-or-so US graduates per year.

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

So the average US high school has about 0.5 kids who get admitted to Harvard, about one every 8 years. So if Harvard is admitting exactly the smartest US kids (plus a smaller number of even smarter international students), all of them are probably smarter than any of the smart kids at your high school.

But they probably aren't. I didn't apply to Harvard, myself. If I had, I probably wouldn't have gotten in.

Re:Rural purge by ipnon on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:45AM (#27026543)
What I meant is that elite universities like Harvard and Stanford are capturing something like 90% of those 3 sigma high school graduates, not that all Harvard and Stanford students are 3 sigma. That was not the case 100 years ago, and in the 1970s it was a rapidly increasing trend. Thank you for calling out this ambiguity.
Re:Rural purge by Glyptodon on Monday May 03, 2021 @01:57PM (#27028405)
It seems pretty hard to believe for that Harvard and Stanford, or even just the more "elite" universities capture 90% of circa 3 sigma high school students. My experience is that desiring to go to Harvard, Stanford, or other "prestigious" schools is way more correlated to the socialization of valuing prestige than anything, and that many of the very smart folks I've met value particular interests or other concerns much more than status signaling. I'm also not sure the most common admissions tools have great usefulness or accuracy into measurement above 2 sigma. (Though I'm sure people are pretty smart at these schools.)
Re:Rural purge by cigaser on Monday May 03, 2021 @01:50PM (#27028301)
Foreign students?
Re:Rural purge by lmohseni on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:12AM (#27026110)
Cognitive elite? Or cultural elite. Given that IQ scores purport to measure cognitive faculty but instead measure cultural fluency.

(Changed pretend to purport)

Re:Rural purge by whatshisface on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:14AM (#27026137)
That's not as true as one would hope. There's not a lot of "cultural fluency" involved in matching squares, unless you're from the jungle and have grown up never seeing any squares. (The theory that people who grew up not looking at corners would be less able to perceive square shapes has received some attention, but we have to admit that doesn't have much relevance to people living in modern countries like America or India .)

Now, cultural fluency questions have appeared on IQ tests, especially in the past. However that's not so much an attack on the idea of "g" as it is a problem with antiquated methods of measuring it.

That's not to say that IQ tests are that accurate. The biggest confounder I know of is ADHD, which causes the tests to come out five whole points lower on average. I'm sure there are others.

Re:Rural purge by the_local_host on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:22AM (#27026254)
> There's not a lot of "cultural fluency" involved in matching squares

There are a lot of cultural factors involved in believing a seemingly pointless exercise like matching squares is worth doing. You have to believe that something good can come out of it in general; and you have to believe that something good can come out of it specifically for yourself.

Re:Rural purge by whatshisface on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:27AM (#27026313)
Accurately measuring the performance of someone who is not interested in demonstrating their performance seems like an impossible task for anyone but GLaDOS from the Portal series. ;)

More seriously, random pattern matching questions are the best you can do to control for the not-caring factor, because they eliminate the advantage of test prep. The SAT has a significant test prep factor, which I agree is highly confounded by "culture" (a byword for how much your parents make you study) and the circumstances and opportunities related to test prep, including the motivation of the student, and the availability of a place to study and study materials. IQ tests are significantly more meritocratic than algorithms interviews or the SAT.

Re:Rural purge by _hyn3 on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:36AM (#27026423)
I've never taken an IQ test and never plan to. I took the SAT, but it has significantly changed over the years; my score today would not be translatable to my score then.

OT, but I really love GlaDOS and hope there's another Portal soon.

Re:Rural purge by majewsky on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @05:04AM (#27035448)
If you haven't seen it yet, check out "Portal Reloaded" on Steam. It's a fan-made game like "Portal Stories Mel" from a few years ago, but Reloaded goes as far as adding entirely new mechanics. It's about as close as we'll ever get to Portal 3.
Re:Rural purge by nocommentguy on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:48AM (#27026583)
That could be true, but it’s still a good measure of IQ. This “cultural” angle is a narrative that started from criticisms of SAT vocab tests and critics of IQ tests latched onto it and hope they can convince everyone that IQ isn’t real and everyone is equally smart in their own way
Re:Rural purge by zozbot234 on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:22AM (#27026259)
Colleges don't filter their entrants by matching squares. Even the SAT test could be said to be culturally biased in a way that discounts rural ways of life and their rich legacy of traditional knowledge.
Re:Rural purge by whatshisface on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:42AM (#27026503)
Ironically, college admissions would get a lot more egalitarian if they switched to IQ tests, because the long list of confounding factors (or "privileges" as some people call them) like the availability of free hours to study in, have much less impact on matching abstract symbols in rows than they have on the SAT or other partially knowledge-based tests.

I'm not sure if we want to do that because the capacity for working hard is often more valuable than "g". One's capacity and willingness to work hard for a long time is impossible to untangle from one's circumstances including one's upbringing. Fairly testing for that is much harder than testing for g but it may be too crucial to ignore.

Re:Rural purge by ghaff on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:52AM (#27026638)
It probably wouldn't make much difference. There's pretty good correlation between SAT and IQ. See e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6963451/
Re:Rural purge by zozbot234 on Monday May 03, 2021 @12:02PM (#27026750)
That correlation is not invariant to cultural factors. Your own link mentions some of these - namely, "epistemic belief of learning, performance-avoidance goals, and parental education", for which we can easily measure variation across ethnicity (which of course is a lot more visible and more easily operationalized that a more nuanced understanding of culture, including urban vs. rural).
Re:Rural purge by whatshisface on Monday May 03, 2021 @12:06PM (#27026818)
The paper you linked doesn't report the correlation as far as I could see, but it did cite a paper that said it was 0.86[0]. That's great for a social sciences correlation, but not so great as a way to be fair. 0.86 leaves a lot of room for other processes - and in competitive scenarios at the top of the distribution, the confounders could make all the difference.

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15147489/

Re:Rural purge by brobdingnagians on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:21AM (#27026232)
That is an important distinction (or at least the idea that IQ only measures a very narrow and not so significant part of a persons intelligence). I would surmise that a lot of those graduating with high IQs have also acquired the arrogance to believe that they should manage society, not just businesses. They can point to IQ scores and high salaries to prove their supposed superiority. In that way, IQ has become a cultural myth for reinforcing mandate to rule; we even have magazines comparing the IQs of different presidents throughout history, as estimated by pseudo-psychologists. The cultural elite have become something of a ruling/chattering class, more so than before, with greater and greater divides between different sectors of society. It is all quite ironic, since it could be argued that the elites today have less critical thinking abilities than our classically educated ancestors, many of whom expressly rejected a belief in elite rule. Fixation on IQ and wealth can be like the Cyrenians who wasted their wealth teaching their war horses to dance, then getting defeated when the enemy played flutes in battle, causing their horses to dance.
Re:Rural purge by salawat on Monday May 03, 2021 @02:53PM (#27029166)
They who count their wealth to measure their worth are those that would measure the worth of their home by the piles of sawdust produced in making it.

-Thief 3, some Hammerite (paraphrased)

IQ is a meme, and once you get away from the ivory tower and see how everyone else has to make it, you realize just how jacked the entire thing is. The thing in this case being the prestige class. Noblis oblige is dead, the new money is stark raving mad, the old money couldn't give a shit more. Nobody has any more of a clue than anyone else, and the executable bad idea is valued over and above the good idea that just doesn't seem quite ready to crystallize yet.

The biggest curse in my opinion is to see and grok the magnitude and nature of the problems but to not be in a position to do much about them besides trying to explain it to a handful of people and hope a couple understand, are in a spot and mindset to do something about it, take it, and run with it. It's kind of like being a Chief or high level enlisted in the armed forces from what I gather. Too busy getting things done to keep the status quo moving, but also facilitating bottom up information propagation and nudging the command structure in the right direction via reality checks.

Oh... The dreams that have died from learning how the world really works. They are a plenty.

Re:Rural purge by YeGoblynQueenne on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:30AM (#27026350)
>> Fixation on IQ and wealth can be like the Cyrenians who wasted their wealth teaching their war horses to dance, then getting defeated when the enemy played flutes in battle, causing their horses to dance.

Source for the story, please?

Re:Rural purge by jfengel on Monday May 03, 2021 @03:58PM (#27029929)
It's the Sybarites, not the Cyrenians, and that's the origins of "sybaritic".

> But they had carried their luxury to such a pitch that they had taught even their horses to dance at their feasts to the music of the flute. Accordingly the people of Crotona, knowing this, and being at war with them, as Aristotle relates in his History of the Constitution of Sybaris, played before their horses the air to which they were accustomed to dance; for the people of Crotona also had fluteplayers in military uniform. And as soon as the horses heard them playing on the flute, they not only began to dance, but ran over to the army of the Crotonians, carrying their riders with them.

-- Athenaeus, The Deipnosophists

The Aristotlean source he cites is lost.

Re:Rural purge by brobdingnagians on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @07:16AM (#27036311)
Thank you! That explains why I couldn't find it; heard it in a history of philosophy class ages ago :)
Re:Rural purge by YeGoblynQueenne on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @04:36AM (#27035279)
Thanks.
Re:Rural purge by amalcon on Monday May 03, 2021 @12:54PM (#27027491)
> we even have magazines comparing the IQs of different presidents throughout history, as estimated by pseudo-psychologists.

Which magazine / when? It sounds like this might actually contain some insight into the thinking of the magazine's editors, which could be interesting (so long as one is careful to assign no truth value to the content).

Edit: Googling has led me to a few, all citing this one paper from 2006. Political Psychology, Vol. 27, No. 4 (Aug., 2006), pp. 511-526 TLDR: The methodology is a bit loose, taking biographical achievements in earlier life and correlating them with people of known intelligence who did similar things. This leads to the perhaps-unsurprising result that they were all estimated at above-average IQ. I'm not sure why a 2006 paper would be turned into article fodder now.

Re:Rural purge by brobdingnagians on Tuesday May 04, 2021 @08:29AM (#27036836)
Thank you! That is even more info than I had. Odd how so many places picked it up in the last couple of years
Re:Rural purge by dcolkitt on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:53AM (#27026655)
IQ is highly correlated with reaction times.[1] It's extremely difficult to explain that result if you assume IQ is purely cultural, rather than neurological.

[1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5608941/

Re:Rural purge by zionic on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:16AM (#27026165)
Is this true? Plenty of IQ tests are extremely simple pattern recognition. The science of measuring human cognitive performance is plagued by cultural taboos more so than process issues.
Re:Rural purge by lostcolony on Monday May 03, 2021 @12:10PM (#27026878)
Sort of; even the non-verbal portions have different means across cultures, AND the neuropsychological abilities that predicted higher scores differed across cultures as well.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24055883/

So what exactly an IQ test is measuring differs between cultures (though it certainly is measuring -something- since there are other correlations), since even the separately identifiable and measurable abilities that lead to someone doing well on an IQ test differ across cultures.

Re:Rural purge by philwelch on Monday May 03, 2021 @02:02PM (#27028506)
I think you’re half-right there.

To my understanding, IQ tests do measure generalized intelligence, and a lot of standardized tests correlate to them fairly well.

However, elite universities have been deemphasizing standardized tests for decades in favor of fuzzier admissions criteria. This, among other things, enables discrimination against minorities that overperform on standardized tests (historically Jews, currently Asians).

You’re right that the elite class is a self-selected cultural elite, but standardized tests are less of a tool and more of an impediment to their self-selection process.

Re:Rural purge by voldacar on Monday May 03, 2021 @01:25PM (#27027950)
I'm gonna need a source that "cultural fluency" determines your ability to rotate weirdly-shaped little 3d objects around in your head
Re:Rural purge by kingsuper20 on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:10AM (#27026085)
That doesn't explain earlier network television. There was something of a push for high-quality stage drama, jazz, avant-garde comedy in addition to urban situation comedies (I Love Lucy, The Honeymooners).

My guess is that somebody does a successful show and everyone else jumps in the pool.

Re:Rural purge by ghaff on Monday May 03, 2021 @11:30AM (#27026349)
That article (and a couple of articles/blogs it references) tries to coherently explain why TV changed like it did during that period. The better explanation is probably that network programming--probably even more so than other aspects of culture--was very much a fashion business. It may also reflect the personal preferences of a handful of network execs. Furthermore, the 70s were definitely not a back to the city period so its hard to use that as an explanation.
Re:Rural purge by kingsuper20 on Monday May 03, 2021 @12:18PM (#27026963)
There's always the pachinko effect of network executive tastes, it's not unlike the music business, but I think that the article is trying to find patterns in clouds.

To refresh my memory, I just looked at a bunch of years of network programming. The 'rural' comedies don't seem to make that much of a footprint. If anything, a person could probably build a more convincing, invented-from-whole-cloth, essay about the birth and death of Western TV shows.

Re:Rural purge by ghaff on Monday May 03, 2021 @12:30PM (#27027109)
Or private detective--outside of British imports of course. Medical dramas. Etc.

I think I probably agree with you though that Westerns (both on TV and film) are probably the almost stereotypically American genre that used to be hugely popular and is largely non-existent today.

But I'm not sure I'd assign any great significance to the fact other than shifting tastes and, perhaps, sensitivities.

Re:Rural purge by cafard on Monday May 03, 2021 @09:50PM (#27033225)
I'm not getting into the whole IQ thing, but have you watched some of what was on TV in the later 1970s? Treat yourself to a binge viewing of "Love Boat", "Lenny and Squiggy", or "Three's Company" or even ostensibly serious stuff like "Marcus Welby" or "Lou Grant". When you have recovered, tell me again about the cognitively elite at the network executive level.