News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by andrewcooke on Sunday June 26, 2011 @08:26AM (#2697904)
i suspect some people here don't really know in any detail how password cracking works.

you start with a dictionary. a good dictionary combines multiple passwords, slang, common patterns of keys on the keyboard, and old, known, passwords (so all the entries here will be added, for example).

but that's just the start. the cracking programs also have rules. in simple terms these can be "shift to upper case" or "combine two words from dictionary" or "reverse word" or "replace "e" with "3". and there are common sets of rules that people develop (and test) that do standard transformations like automatically making passwords "leet", or extending with common sequences (123), etc.

and you can automate this. so something like hashcat will generate random rules and apply them to the dictionary. because the rules are written so that they can be composed this is surprisingly powerful and probably explains some of the "harder" cracks on this list.

the only way to beat this, then, is to use random passwords (for example, as generated by keepass) and to make them large enough that just running through every combination doesn't work.

on size: what is important is the number of available combinations. systematic cracking - trying every possible combination - still uses common characters first so "size" is a combination of character variety and number of characters. again, something like keepass makes this easy.

finally, note that on some old or poorly maintained systems, you may be restricted (perhaps without knowing) to 8 characters. then using a wide range of characters is critical.

i know this is obvious to many, but some of the comments about "hard" passwords made me think it might be useful...

Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by frederickcook on Sunday June 26, 2011 @11:54AM (#2698255)
So this is not the complete set of passwords, only the ones that have been cracked so far, using a dictionary? Scanning through the list, very few look like a random set of characters that a password generator would come up with. Does that mean that passwords which were randomly generated are, and are likely to remain, safe?
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by rakkhi on Sunday June 26, 2011 @12:41PM (#2698364)
about 8200 of the 61017 accounts compromised. "only" 13%, so not bad password choices among bitcoin users on MTGOX
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by andrewcooke on Sunday June 26, 2011 @11:59AM (#2698268)
So this is not the complete set of passwords, only the ones that have been cracked so far, using a dictionary?

a dictionary + rules + time. yes (i assume - i have no inside knowledge).

[...] passwords which were randomly generated are, and are likely to remain, safe?

it depends on the length and range of characters. random passwords are still vulnerable if they are short and/or use a restricted range of characters. they can be found "by accident" when using rules and dictionaries. they can also be found by simply trying all combinations ("a", "b", ..., "aa", ..., "ab"...). length and character range protects against both of these.

it's likely that attackers will use all available approaches, including simple brute force. i focused on dictionaries + rules above because (1) that's generally more efficient and (2) some people don't seem to realize how powerful it is.

Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by frederickcook on Sunday June 26, 2011 @12:32PM (#2698344)
Thanks. I was under the impression somehow that cracking the first few passwords would make it easier to crack the rest (by figuring out the salting scheme perhaps)?

Also, if there is no restricted range of characters, and a solid, random password is used, how can the attacker know when they have broken it, short of trying them all against the actual server?

Edit: Forget that last bit. I'm confusing myself.

Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by rakkhi on Sunday June 26, 2011 @12:43PM (#2698373)
No cracking one doesn't help you with the rest at all. Salt and encryption scheme figured out to even start.

You just keep going in bruteforce and build bigger rainbow tables / variant dictionary attacks. Given a large number of GPU's you will get all passwords.. time though could be a number of years to thousands of years.

Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by andrewcooke on Sunday June 26, 2011 @02:16PM (#2698620)
actually, the last point is interesting, but goes the other way: the attacker doesn't have to find your password, just some text that hashes to the same value that is in the password file. that places an upper limit on how secure you can make passwords for any given hash (although in practice it's usually irrelevant).
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by frederickcook on Sunday June 26, 2011 @03:53PM (#2698921)
Ok, this is interesting, so now we're talking about hashing collisions, right? The idea might be that if you just start iterating through all possible alphanumeric combinations, that it's possible you'd stumble on a successful collision before you'd stumble on the actual password. It seems this would only be likely once the number of possible passwords was greater than the number of possible hash outputs (32^66 for MD5, right)? That would occur if the length restriction on the password was greater than the length of the hash output, or a broader charset was allowed for the password than for the hashing output.

I guess if this ever actually became a relevant concern, you'd simply keep adding a few extra chars to the hashing algorithm output to keep it beyond the range of reasonable.

Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by 16s on Sunday June 26, 2011 @05:27PM (#2699139)
You can actually calculate password bit strength/safety (assuming the chars are indeed random... and that's a big assumption). A randomly selected character from all printable ASCII characters (roughly 95 chars) has about 6.5 bits of entropy. So an eight character password is about 52-bits strong.

9 = 58.5-bits

10 = 65.0-bits

11 = 71.5-bits

Edit: Spelling & Grammar

Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by brianleb on Sunday June 26, 2011 @11:01AM (#2698102)
I have a tangentially related question. During this LulzSec situation, I stepped into 2009 and started using LastPass. I generated 16 character random passwords for every place that I've been visiting. As I understand it, these passwords are encrypted on my machine and then uploaded to LastPass servers. When I login with my master password, I have access to all of these passwords unencrypted.

My question: is there an intrinsic weakness in storing these passwords at a central location? E.g. would it be feasible that LastPass gets targeted by a complicated blackhat attack, and then instead of losing just one of my passwords I lost them all? Or is the manner in which they are encrypted and transmitted secure enough to prevent this?

Thanks.

Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by Acorn on Sunday June 26, 2011 @11:34AM (#2698195)
If someone managed to compromise LastPass' servers, they would be able to modify the content that was sent to your browser, and thereby do anything they wanted with your master password after you typed it in.

That's the weakness of services that are supposedly "Host-proof". If the host is sending you the webapp/javascript/webpage in which your data is decrypted, each and every time you visit their website, you have to trust that they wont (or someone else wont) modify it in a malicious way in order to gain access to your data.

The only way to be safe from this kind of attack is to use the same trusted copy of the code, and not use any new versions until you trust that it is also safe, or to somehow verify that the webpage sent to your browser is exactly what you expect it to be.

Cortesi has a very good write up on this issue: http://corte.si/posts/security/hostproof.html

Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by rakkhi on Sunday June 26, 2011 @12:47PM (#2698384)
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by shinratdr on Sunday June 26, 2011 @03:23PM (#2698825)
Yes, it is. Use 1Password or KeePass because they aren't centrally hosted. 1Password even provides a little security through obscurity by using DropBox for its optional keychain syncing. People store a lot of uninteresting crap on Dropbox, filtering through to gather .agilekeychains would be a real PITA.
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by bluesnowmonkey on Sunday June 26, 2011 @05:06PM (#2699082)
If only there were a device that could automate computational tasks, such filtering would no longer pose a challenge. Some sort of compute-er...
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by shinratdr on Wednesday June 29, 2011 @06:19PM (#2711643)
If it was simple as filtering for those files, you would have a point. It's not though. If you can't see the difference between a big compiled database of 1 million+ users password DBs vs a multiple petabyte mess of all types of files including a handful of agilekeychains, then it's not worth discussing further.
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by bonzoesc on Sunday June 26, 2011 @11:05AM (#2698109)
If LastPass uses good cryptography your passwords should be safe for a very long time.
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by loy22 on Sunday June 26, 2011 @10:58AM (#2698093)
Correct me if I'm wrong: you mean that in the real world, salted passwords have only one advantage over plain text passwords, which is to buy you some time ? (albeit it's a strong advantage)
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by ianterrell on Sunday June 26, 2011 @11:26AM (#2698163)
A salted, hashed (with a slow hash function) strong (long, random, large character set) password, will take hundreds, thousands, or millions of years (average case) to crack with brute force.

It's only technically "buying some time." In reality it's keeping it completely secure.

And what use would a hacker have attacking a whole database full of them? It would take too long to do it, even with less secure passwords. It takes your fruit out of the "low hanging" category, which is a bit of security in itself.

Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by bitbear on Sunday June 26, 2011 @04:07PM (#2698953)
Would you consider very long passwords (say 40 characters) containing only dictionary words to be safe?
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by andrewcooke on Sunday June 26, 2011 @04:28PM (#2698997)
you can do the maths. if the words are drawn from a dictionary of size D and you use N words then the number of choices that need to be explored is D^N. the equivalent number of bits is log2 of that.

so what's D? i imagine most people would use common words, so let's take the most popular 1 percent of "dict/words" on my computer. that's 4,000 words. log2(D^N) = N * log2(D) = N * 12 (since log2(1000)~10).

now in another thread here there's an article saying that 9 characters drawn from an alphabet of 100 (lower+upper+symbols) is around the current limit. the equivalent number of bits there is log2(100^9) = 60. so you'd need about 5 words (5*12=60) for the same level of security.

tl;dr: you need more than 5 words (very) roughly. i am not 100% sure i have the maths right, either :o)

in more practical terms, i don't know of a program that actually does this. the programs i know about typically only combine a few words. but i am no great expert, and it would be fairly easy to write such a program.

[edit: actually, you are less safe than i estimate above if the attacker is smart, because the words probably aren't independent (most people will use meaningful sentences). so you can use markov chains to hugely reduce the search space (in more general terms: "the" will be followed by a noun phrase, etc). so you need significantly more than 5 words. heh. if someone wants to pay me to write such a program, please get in touch... ;o]

Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by andrewcooke on Sunday June 26, 2011 @12:33PM (#2698346)
oops. "a good dictionary combines multiple passwords, ..." should be "a good dictionary combines multiple languages, ..."

WTF. some fuckwit downvoted this? i wrote the text i am correcting. screw you. why do i bother to write useful comments? this place gets worse.

Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by gojomo on Sunday June 26, 2011 @03:09PM (#2698780)
I think there are a few grumpy types that downvote for little reason, or perhaps completely arbitrarily. They're often the first votes in, as this action requires little consideration, and presumably such people have few other distractions.

Also, some downvotes are cast in error. This is very easy on touch-screens, and occasionally a problem elsewhere. Since totals are no longer displayed, a person may not even realize their intended upvote registered as a downvote.

So assume it was a mistake. Or a hopelessly grumpy person whose bad attitude is best ignored, rather than amplified with curses and complaints. Brush off the first downvote or two, and well-considered upvotes follow soon enough.

Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by seanp2k on Sunday June 26, 2011 @09:01PM (#2699629)
Yeah, I've gotten downvoted a lot for correcting people...but I think that not even approaching proper english makes you look like an idiot, so really, I'm helping.
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by wahnfrieden on Sunday June 26, 2011 @02:52PM (#2698725)
Just so you know, there's an edit link in each of your posts, though it goes away after enough time.
Re:MtGox salted passwords cracked by saurik on Sunday June 26, 2011 @03:53PM (#2698923)
(The two comments were made four hours apart.)