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Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by cromwellian on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:09PM (#26949486)
One thing that worries me is if we 'exterminate the common cold' will we then preferentially encourage the evolution of something worse? e.g. if the existing Rhinoviruses are somewhat symbiotic, that is, they cause sickness in the host to spread themselves, but they are an annoyance, not life threatening in most cases.

Now if we have a vaccine for those, do those relatively benign viruses evolve to bypass the vaccine, but in doing so pick up more dangerous mutations in that process?

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by fwip on Monday April 26, 2021 @08:38PM (#26950233)
Viruses (or bacteria) don't "evolve to bypass" vaccines, antibiotics, or anything else. They generally have a pretty constant mutation rate, the vast majority of which are deleterious.

The more people that have a virus, the more copies are out there mutating, and the more mutations (in total) you'll see.

If you introduce negative pressure, like a vaccine or antibiotics, some of those mutations that were previously deleterious will turn out to be a net benefit. E.g: A thicker cell wall in bacteria makes it harder to absorb nutrients, but also increases the dose of antibiotic it can survive. These mutations happen all the time by chance, but in the absence of the vaccine/antibiotics, they are less fit and will tend to die off.

A vaccine that eliminates a virus is likely to result in less infections. Less infections means less mutations means less chance for a dangerous variant. If some variants do evolve that escape the vaccine, odds are good that they will be less dangerous than the original, not more.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by jimmydorry on Monday April 26, 2021 @10:48PM (#26951369)
This notion appears to go against all the expert advice against (ab)using anti-biotics. Sure, less infections means less chance for mutations, but due to the fundamental forces at play, the resistant mutations will spread faster through the resistant population and eventually become the prevalent strain.

Unless you can eradicate the virus or bacteria completely (mass effective vacination), the tools we create to fight them are really only delaying the inevitable.

>If some variants do evolve that escape the vaccine, odds are good that they will be less dangerous than the original, not more.

From my understanding, this is not the case. It's pure chance whether a mutation is advantageous or disadvantageous. If you are looking on a per-mutation basis, then sure, it's likely the mutation is disadvantageous. But at a population level, it's likely that atleast one advantageous mutation will emerge reasonably quickly when we are talking about something at the scale of several thousands of infections.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by istjohn on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:22AM (#26951980)
Seeing as we've wiped out multiple viruses completely, but have yet to eliminate any bacterial diseases, I believe there is an important difference between vaccines and antibiotics.

Perhaps viruses are simply more specialized, so it's easier to eliminate anywhere to hide by innocculating affected populations, while bacteria are more general purpose and can survive even without living hosts.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by Izkata on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @01:08AM (#26952234)
> Seeing as we've wiped out multiple viruses completely

If we're talking only human viruses, the count is 1: Smallpox, and it took about 20 years. If not, I think the count is 2, the other being a cat one.

In both cases, if I remember right, the virus couldn't jump species, while SARS-CoV-2 already has multiple times.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by istjohn on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:25AM (#26952675)
Yes, I thought we eradicated Polio, too. I see I was wrong. But apparently we are very close to eliminating a disease caused by a nematode parasite, too [1]. Fascinating.

[1] https://asm.org/Articles/2020/March/Disease-Eradication-What...

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by fwip on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:02PM (#26957756)
Antibiotic-resistant bacteria are bad not because they're more dangerous than regular bacteria, but because they are harder to treat with those antibiotics.

As for your second point - mutations are happening whether or not we vaccinate. Vaccination does not cause mutation.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by instakill on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @03:47AM (#26953183)
No. Just no.

Antibiotics do not treat viruses. They treat bacterial infections, which WILL mutate and evolve as you claim with overuse of antibiotics.

This does not apply in the slightest to VIRAL infections.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by chiefalchemist on Monday April 26, 2021 @08:32PM (#26950183)
Flip it around as well. Take for example Zika. When passed from mother to unborn it can cause various brain abnormalities. But perhaps eons ago a virus is what made homo sapiens more intelligent. If a virus can mangle the brain it can also nudge it in a positive direction.

Finally, human DNA is peppered with traces of viruses.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/virus-genes-hu...

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by xvilka on Monday April 26, 2021 @09:22PM (#26950623)
Not only peppered, it's the main dish: 8% is direct viral remains, while other 40% have a viral origin.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by nanagojo on Monday April 26, 2021 @08:34PM (#26950195)
Don't think it works like that. Nothing is stopping other viruses from infecting you while you are infected.
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by xvilka on Monday April 26, 2021 @09:20PM (#26950609)
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by donkarma on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:15PM (#26949536)
One worry is that if a vaccine allows for transmission but doesn't generate anything when it comes to effects from the virus, it'll let the virus evolve more dangerous mutations without becoming an issue. This could be potentially dangerous to people who are unvaccinated or if it manages to get past the vaccine. I'm probably pretty in favor of keeping the common cold as it's never killed anyone and helps train the immune system
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by lamontcg on Monday April 26, 2021 @07:53PM (#26949846)
> One worry is that if a vaccine allows for transmission but doesn't generate anything when it comes to effects from the virus

That isn't a real worry, that is a science-fiction worry.

Viral load, transmissibility and virulence are fairly tightly coupled and they will definitely not come fully uncoupled like that.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by fao_ on Monday April 26, 2021 @08:23PM (#26950102)
At the risk of sounding like someone who is posited against the vaccine (I'm not, and I'm looking to receiving my second dose soon), where is your citation on this?
Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by lamontcg on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:56AM (#26952875)
> By far, the most widely studied trade-off involves transmission and virulence (Anderson and May, 1982; Frank, 1996; Alizon et al. 2009). Transmission and virulence are linked by within-host replication: increasing parasite abundance increases the likelihood of transmission, but also increases the likelihood of host death; mathematically, this assumption can be formalized by making transmission rate β an increasing function of parasite-induced mortality rate ν. Nearly all of the literature we summarize below assumes this trade-off.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/parasitology/article...

Anderson, R. M. and May, R. M. (1982). Coevolution of hosts and parasites. Parasitology 85(Pt 2), 411–426.

Frank, S. A. (1996). Models of parasite virulence. Quarterly Review of Biology 71, 37–78.

Alizon, S., Hurford, A., Mideo, N. and Van Baalen, M. (2009). Virulence evolution and the trade-off hypothesis: history, current state of affairs and the future. Journal of Evolutionary Biology 22, 245–259.

Re:Pfizer is testing a pill that, if successful, could cure ... by zwaps on Monday April 26, 2021 @10:18PM (#26951116)
Data from Israel suggests that the vaccine reduces transmissivity by 70 or so per cent. I do not have the link handy, but there is definitely a coupling.

It's not 100%, but it seems to be more than we hoped for. At least for covid, the viral load is reduced and infection depends on that.