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Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by em-bee on Monday April 26, 2021 @01:56PM (#26945653)
worse. if you can't associate with such people, then you can't work to change their mind either. i remember a story about someone who made friends with kkk members, and one by one managed to turn them away from the kkk. that probably took some time for each person, during which he had to have been seen associating with them.
Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by exporectomy on Monday April 26, 2021 @04:07PM (#26947396)
Why change their mind? You can also let them change your mind. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you're right and they're wrong. For these big ethical and moral issues, people are often completely certain their view is right but they can't explain why. The reason is probably because their society tells them they'll be a bad person (at risk of being shunned!) for thinking otherwise. Strong social punishment for holding a belief isn't a good reason that belief is wrong.
Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by em-bee on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:01AM (#26951865)
You can also let them change your mind

only if they are able to convince me, but even if they are completely certain their view is right but they can't explain why, then they will not be able to do that. if you want to change someones mind you need to understand and be able to explain why they are wrong.

Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by jerkstate on Monday April 26, 2021 @03:31PM (#26946928)
Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by nitrogen on Monday April 26, 2021 @03:25PM (#26946848)
i remember a story about someone who made friends with kkk members, and one by one managed to turn them away from the kkk

Daryl Davis: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis

Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by jfengel on Monday April 26, 2021 @03:21PM (#26946797)
As a control, how many people left the KKK without knowing him?
Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by setr on Monday April 26, 2021 @03:56PM (#26947225)
It doesn’t matter. Guilt by association implies you can’t even attempt the idea, regardless of success rate. It’s very strictly an us vs. them heuristic, with little to no room for nuance.
Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by josefx on Monday April 26, 2021 @04:00PM (#26947292)
How many people left the KKK without ever associating with people outside of it before?
Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by ohyeshedid on Monday April 26, 2021 @03:57PM (#26947250)
As a control for what, exactly?
Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by jfengel on Monday April 26, 2021 @04:37PM (#26947768)
The assertion is that his friend's acquaintance with KKK members was effective at helping them leave. But we can't tell how effective unless we know how many people would have left without the friend's assistance.
Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by ohyeshedid on Monday April 26, 2021 @05:04PM (#26948109)
Reread what they said; it's not their friend and he made no claims to efficacy. Your response seems off-context.
Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by jfengel on Monday April 26, 2021 @05:26PM (#26948373)
You're correct: it wasn't their friend, it was something they read.

It does sound like they're making a claim to efficacy. It says "one by one managed to turn them away". That's the part I'm asking for clarification on.

Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by ohyeshedid on Monday April 26, 2021 @05:50PM (#26948681)
The anecdote about Daryl Davis is the preamble, the last sentence is their point.

I'm not saying that's not a valid point of conversation, I'm saying it comes across as off-context to the point where it seems a little like bait.

Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by watwut on Monday April 26, 2021 @04:45PM (#26947873)
However, he did not managed to endanger KKK power one bit.

And way more people who socialize in KKK circles end up naturally moving toward racism and extremes of it. They change toward racism, because that is what choose to hear most of time.

It so happens that these are quite aggressive when voice disagreements with them, so socialising with the requires you to pretend you agree, at least on the edges. It works like any other bubble overtime, the anti-racists become crazy ennemies.

Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by em-bee on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @12:15AM (#26951945)
that is a rather defeatist attitude. just because one person won't have much effect at changing a large group of people, doesn't mean their effort is worthless. (besides, it is also not correct that he didn't manage to change anything. read the above linked wikipedia page. he dismantled the kkk in one state. when a new leader emerged, he converted that person too. if a few more people do that all over the US, keep it up for a generation or two, the kkk could be gone)

there is also quite a difference between people who socialize in kkk circles, and those who befriend individuals with the intent of changing their mind. the latter, for certain will not only socialize in kkk circles but also in other circles where they get the necessary grounding for their work to change those people.

i understand your point. from your perspective it makes sense. but i think you are missing something. pretending to agree does not make me believe what i pretend to. but i also think that pretending is not needed here, but rather it's important to empathize with my opponent, and then gently educate them to point out the flaws in their argument.

if i am working with someone to educate them and change their mind, then i am not joining their bubble. i am not giving up on my other circles either. rather i am breaking out of my bubble, and i help others break out of theirs. i end up with a better understanding of why they have their beliefs, and they hopefully get a better understanding why they might be wrong. we both gain something.

Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by watwut on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @02:25AM (#26952677)
Looking into history to see what worked and what did not worked is not "defeatist". It is absurd however to take one outlier and then talk about it as if this was the way social issue were solved - ever. Sometimes it works on individual level, but acting like this is how things gets changed, no.

> pretending to agree does not make me believe what i pretend to.

It somewhat does. More importantly, as you pretend you agree, the people who happen to disagree will slowly move themselves out from your company, because listening to you agreeing is uncomfortable for them. And they get better treatment elsewhere.

Also the pull of extreme groups is not just rational where you point out flaws in thinking and logic will do rest. There is strong social (strong bonds to other extremeists) component and strong emotional component (it feels good to be superior, it feels good to see yourself as protector of race - a hero).

Re:Cheerleader’s Snapchat rant leads to ‘momentous’ Supreme ... by em-bee on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @04:29AM (#26953446)
i may simply be unaware of this, but what other attempts have been made to solve this and other social issues?

as far as i can tell, also from personal experience, education and friendship are the only ways to solve social issues that actually have a lasting effect.

as you pretend you agree, the people who happen to disagree will slowly move themselves out

possible, but as i said, pretending is not actually part of the strategy. you don't pretend, you empathize, but that doesn't mean you agree or even pretend to agree.

There is strong social component

which is broken by your friendship. you show that they can find better friends, and you are one of them.