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Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Sunday April 25, 2021 @05:42PM (#26936966)
Interesting how the article completely leaves out the Heroin/Fentanyl/Meth epidemic.

SF is another example of what happens when public policy gets it wrong, our false compassion is killing people and city leaders are doing less than nothing about it.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by WarOnPrivacy on Sunday April 25, 2021 @05:46PM (#26937002)
Opioids are at most a companion to the homeless epidemic.

If we're on the subject of compassion, millions who are no longer able to acquire effective pain relief could use some.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Monday April 26, 2021 @01:24PM (#26945227)
Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Sunday April 25, 2021 @05:49PM (#26937027)
In SF our homelessness is driven by drug abuse and the lack of ability to put addicts and the mentally ill into conservatorship, its well documented.

> If we're on the subject of compassion, millions who are no longer able to acquire effective pain relief could use some.

Could you clarify what you mean by that?

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by swiley on Sunday April 25, 2021 @08:09PM (#26937994)
As someone looking at you guys from across the continent: at least part of your problem appears to come from a refusal to build dense housing which would allow people making something nearer average wage to sleep indoors.
Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Monday April 26, 2021 @01:13PM (#26945089)
Housing has very little to do with it. SF has always been an expensive city to live in and its surrounded with suburbs with affordable housing.

There are almost no homeless people in the surrounding areas because they come to SF for drugs and they know they won't be prosecuted for living their lifestyle. We're literally killing people by tolerating their bad behavior.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by olliej on Sunday April 25, 2021 @05:53PM (#26937058)
What on earth? In SF homelessness is caused by the lack of housing. Mental illness is courtesy the Reagan era dismantling of mental health services in CA, and is over-represented for sure.

However, the driving factor for homelessness in SF, is the fact that there is no where for people to live. Thats part of why eviction is so stupidly hard in SF. Once you become homeless it is functionally impossible to get out.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Sunday April 25, 2021 @06:03PM (#26937145)
Its not caused by lack of housing, the people on the street are incapable of supporting themselves much less maintaining a dwelling - have you ever been here? Our homeless are mostly drug-seeking tourists who are from elsewhere.

The Reagan canard is also just that; The Supreme court ruling sought by the ACLU during the Carter administration is why people are out on the street, the govt can't legally commit people like that anymore.

Evictions are hard here for the same reasons that its trivial to get fentanyl in front of the federal building that houses the DEA - failed govt policy.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by tomnipotent on Sunday April 25, 2021 @06:21PM (#26937274)
Maybe do some research.

https://www.pacificresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/H...

"Roughly 34 percent of the homeless in San Francisco are homeless due to direct economic factors, such as evictions and job losses. Another 12 percent became homeless when they lost the safety net of family or friends."

"About 15 percent are due to drug addiction or substance abuse."

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Sunday April 25, 2021 @06:37PM (#26937380)
I've spoken with several people working directly with the homeless, 95% of the people on the street are not from SF, most of them are told to say they're from SF so they can get services. There are tons of fake/stilted reports from special interest groups, they're trying to feed the "Homeless Industrial Complex" which has been growing rapidly since 2003.

The City has even had to sue other counties for dumping: https://www.ktvn.com/story/30191022/nevada-san-francisco-rea...

Its very well known that SF has drug tourists, its so obvious if you're on the streets here...

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by tomnipotent on Sunday April 25, 2021 @07:18PM (#26937646)
> I've spoken with several people working directly with the homeless

And somehow this makes you an expert or informed on the matter?

> 95% of the people on the street are not from SF

This is likely the case for every metro in the world. And?

> well known that SF has drug tourists

Facts and research, please. You seem keen to peddle the homeless as drug-addled perpetrators stereotype.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Sunday April 25, 2021 @07:21PM (#26937666)
Yes, speaking with experts makes one informed.

Even the Mayor of SF has talked about how SF has drug tourists and how they need to be prevented from receiving services. You don't seem to be very informed about SF.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by tomnipotent on Sunday April 25, 2021 @07:26PM (#26937706)
Every single public service is abused by some percentage of people using it. So? The mayor holding a press conference or speaking to the press to score points doesn't make it any more credible than the Reagan's bullshit about drugs in the 80s.

I'm not interested in the incredibly small percentage of people exploiting the system that isn't helping them in the first place, but the large percentage of homeless - transient or long term - that need services but are fought every part of the way by ignorance like this.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Sunday April 25, 2021 @07:34PM (#26937757)
Its not an incredibly small number of people exploiting the system, its 95% of people in this system.
Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by tomnipotent on Sunday April 25, 2021 @07:40PM (#26937806)
> its 95% of people in this system

Pulling numbers out of thin air doesn't make them true.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Sunday April 25, 2021 @08:01PM (#26937935)
That number came from an expert.

They also asserted that if our local DA actually did something about dealing on the streets we'd lose that same number of homeless people and they'd return to wherever they came from before SF, or go to Oakland. SF has turned itself into an "attractive nuisance" due to our unchecked open air drug markets.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by tomnipotent on Sunday April 25, 2021 @08:28PM (#26938103)
> That number came from an expert.

I'm sure it did, and it's not just completely made up with absolutely no corroborating evidence to back it up.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by 1cvmask on Sunday April 25, 2021 @06:49PM (#26937465)
Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by Turing_Machine on Sunday April 25, 2021 @06:11PM (#26937208)
Reagan hasn't been Governor of California for 45 years.

Why haven't they fixed it since then?

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Sunday April 25, 2021 @06:40PM (#26937405)
Because its illegal to commit someone to an institution who hasn't comitted a crime.

San Francisco is trying a new approach but has only managed to get ONE person into conservatorship in the last 2 years because of all the roadblocks put up by a group called "The Coalition on Homelessness".

https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/conservatorship-off-to-a-slo...

To give you an idea, you have to be 5150'ed (aka put on a psychiatric health hold) 8 times in order to receive inpatient treatment. 8 times. If you told someone they'd have to try to kill themselves 8 times before they got help, they'd probably call you nuts.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by Turing_Machine on Sunday April 25, 2021 @08:59PM (#26938246)
> Because its illegal to commit someone to an institution who hasn't comitted a crime.

I'm still not seeing what that do with "Reagan".

If it's a law he instituted, that law could be changed back, yes?

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Monday April 26, 2021 @01:03PM (#26944952)
No, the ACLU sued and its now the law of the land, its probably impossible to undue. Uninformed people blame Reagan for "closing the institutions" but you can't have an institution and nobody to put in it...
Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by celticninja on Sunday April 25, 2021 @05:52PM (#26937055)
You have legalised cannabis in the states, that's a better pain relief option.
Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by thrill on Sunday April 25, 2021 @06:00PM (#26937118)
And your medical degree is from where?
Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by celticninja on Tuesday April 27, 2021 @08:41AM (#26955076)
Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by chakhs on Monday April 26, 2021 @02:42AM (#26939918)
It's probably sarcasm
Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by staticautomatic on Sunday April 25, 2021 @05:51PM (#26937040)
What is the nature of this “false compassion”?
Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Monday April 26, 2021 @01:06PM (#26944998)
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/26/us/san-francisco-drug-cri...

Here's a current article written by a local advocate, its unfortunately paywalled but you're probably aware of ways around that.

Here's a snippet:

I called Thomas Wolf, one of the loudest critics of the city’s policies, to run past him what I was hearing from professors and other experts who have spent their lives studying drug use.

“Forgive me for saying this,” Mr. Wolf politely told me, “but those people who you said you talked to — the experts — they have never shot dope, man. They never stuck a needle in their neck. They never spent a night on the street.”

Mr. Wolf has done all of those things, which makes him one of the most poignant voices in the debate over what San Francisco should do to address an epidemic that claimed 713 lives last year, more than twice as many as died from the coronavirus in the city in 2020.

“You can study homelessness and addiction in a book all day long,” Mr. Wolf told me. “But until you have experienced the power of addiction and the things you thought you would never resort to, you don’t really understand.”

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Sunday April 25, 2021 @06:07PM (#26937173)
Unclear. From what I can tell people seem to think that letting people languish/die on the street by choice is the right thing to do. I'd prefer that we look at addiction as a disease and a public health risk and that we get those people off the street - either into treatment or into the justice system because of the crimes they commit to maintain their addictions. If you look at what a lot of european countries do - they force people off the streets, while thats not very legal here, maybe that is what we should do.
Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by giantg2 on Sunday April 25, 2021 @06:02PM (#26937133)
Don't forget alcohol and other legal drugs.
Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Sunday April 25, 2021 @06:42PM (#26937423)
SF always had a "skid row" area that was mostly alcoholics, but it was a fraction of the size it is now (it was basically a block or two). Now we have an entire neighborhood besieged with people openly using drugs, needles in their arms, smoking fentanyl with anything they can get their hands on.

Alcohol and "legal drugs" are not the problem.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by giantg2 on Sunday April 25, 2021 @07:00PM (#26937539)
I think a block or two is not correct, especially when you correct for population growth and the policy that started shipping them in from other parts of the city. Can you show me population statistics for skid row and overall city homeless compared to the rest of the city/state/country over time?

I don't doubt that opioids have contributed, but alcohol and other legal drugs are a major problem too. If this ruling is based on government caused harm, then it would require investigating the availability of alcohol due to policy too.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Sunday April 25, 2021 @07:13PM (#26937614)
I'm from SF, I know exactly where "skid row" was, and I also worked there for about a decade. Nobody was shipped in from other parts of the city either unless you count people moving from other counties to where meth/heroin/fentanyl was easily available.

You can count the number of people on the street, maybe 1 in 15 has an alcoholic beverage, the rest are smoking meth/fenty/heroin.

SF's problems are all about drugs.

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by giantg2 on Sunday April 25, 2021 @08:05PM (#26937964)
Oh, when they say Skid Row, they mean the 50 block one in LA (the most famous one). Maybe SF is different.

It seems alcohol is still the most abused substance in the homeless population. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29852450/

Re:“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landma... by bifrost on Monday April 26, 2021 @02:23PM (#26946063)
AFAIK "Skid Row" is a generic term, and I did reference SF's specific area.

This is basically what you'll see every few feet in San Francisco's Tenderloin district:

https://twitter.com/DTenderloine/status/1382405311009488897

(Warning, extremely graphic)

Alcohol is certainly abused, but not as publicly as Heroin/Fentanyl....