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Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by sneak on Saturday April 17, 2021 @11:56AM (#26845193)
> The US is somewhere in between.

Bart Gellman's book says that Snowden warned him not to be the only person in possession of the leaked data prior to publication, as the US intelligence community would kill him (Gellman) instantly to prevent the publication of the information contained therein.

This was the biggest takeaway from the book, for me: the US military will assassinate US citizens (journalists!) in the middle of New York City without due process or a trial to prevent them from carrying out journalism.

We expect this kind of cloak and dagger shit from the CIA, but it pays to think about it in clear terms: the US military can and will assassinate US citizens engaging in constitutionally protected activity in the middle of Manhattan with no consequences whatsoever.

Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by smogcutter on Saturday April 17, 2021 @12:06PM (#26845273)
Snowden was an IT contractor, how does he know what the “US intelligence community” would and wouldn’t do?

Not that he’s necessarily wrong, but it seems like a leap to go from Snowden saying something he believes, to a certainty that “the US military can and will assassinate US citizens in the middle of manhattan”.

Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by sneak on Saturday April 17, 2021 @12:15PM (#26845353)
Snowden was trained and directly employed by the CIA in 2006 before he changed jobs to working at IC contractor companies.

After CIA training, he worked in Geneva under diplomatic cover, in 2007 to 2009.

Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by DyslexicAtheist on Saturday April 17, 2021 @12:25PM (#26845439)
indeed he was a real prodigy Sharepoint administrator. I don't want to diminish the value of what he leaked but it's easy to claim he was aware of all the potential butthurt before others pointed it out as things unfolded.

It is much more realistic that what happened was a true "Burn after reading moment" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pabA320p9B0

Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by sneak on Saturday April 17, 2021 @12:37PM (#26845547)
I am fairly confident that CIA training for those who are going to be living and working under diplomatic cover in a foreign country extends well beyond how to wrangle Exchange and Sharepoint.

He wrote about some of the things that happened in Geneva, I encourage you to read them. Even sysadmins for the CIA need to know some stuff about how the game works.

Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by DyslexicAtheist on Saturday April 17, 2021 @12:59PM (#26845715)
he was how old when he was in Geneve? 23? Doubt that any kind of training made him an experienced operative. He was still a kid and hardly the Jason Bourne people make him out to be. I'm not saying his leaks didn't provide huge value but it is more plausible that he wasn't fully aware of all the impact that he claims he had knowledge of back then today (or what people attribute him with).
Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by sneak on Saturday April 17, 2021 @01:18PM (#26845826)
I don't think someone needs to be Jason Bourne to have come to the conclusion in the 73 years of the CIA's operational history that they assassinate people who risk their large-scale projects' secrecy.

This feels like a strawman to cling to the idea that being a US citizen means that the CIA won't assassinate you for being inconvenient, which has been literally and directly claimed, at least twice, by someone from the actual CIA.

Indeed, the reason you even know the name Jason Bourne, or the reason those movies work, is because of the generation-long history and reputation of the US military intelligence services to break the law flagrantly in many countries with no meaningful consequences. We don't have to suspend disbelief to engage with the idea that there is a section of government with staff who can kill anyone they deem needs killing.

Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by sudosysgen on Saturday April 17, 2021 @08:08PM (#26848593)
Don't forget the murder of Fred Hampton, for which the US government was found to be civily liable (greater than 50%)
Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by afrodc_ on Saturday April 17, 2021 @12:00PM (#26845220)
Is there proof of this or is this conjecture?
Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by sneak on Saturday April 17, 2021 @12:03PM (#26845243)
Two examples we know of of the CIA assassinating Americans without trial or consequences:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki

The potential murder of Gellman was stated by Snowden, who was trained by the CIA, and was stated on more than one occasion.

Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by opnitro on Saturday April 17, 2021 @01:18PM (#26845818)
Also this, which wasn't directly the CIA but by CIA backed groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Letelier, a political assassination on US soil. (Although not a US citizen)
Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by selectodude on Saturday April 17, 2021 @02:56PM (#26846531)
That's one heck of a leap to blame on the CIA.
Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by opnitro on Sunday April 18, 2021 @11:51PM (#26858966)
To quote the wikipedia article:

A US State Department document made available by the National Security Archive on 10 April 2010 reveals that a démarche protesting Pinochet's Operation Condor assassination program was proposed and sent on 23 August 1976 to US diplomatic missions in Uruguay, Argentina, and Chile to be delivered to their host governments but later rescinded on 16 September 1976 by Henry Kissinger, following concerns raised by US ambassadors assigned there of both personal safety and a likely diplomatic contretemps. Five days later, the Letelier assassination took place.[8]

Documents released in 2015 revealed a CIA report dated 28 April 1978, which showed that the agency by then had knowledge that Pinochet ordered the murders.[9] The report stated, "Contreras told a confidante he authorized the assassination of Letelier on orders from Pinochet."[9] A State Department document also referred to eight separate CIA reports from around the same date, each sourced to "extremely sensitive informants" who provided evidence of Pinochet's direct involvement in ordering the assassination and in directing the subsequent cover-up.[9]

During the tenure of Richard Downie at the William J. Perry Center for Hemispheric Defense Studies, a U.S. Southern Command educational institution located at the National Defense University, the alleged (and as yet unproven) role of Jaime Garcia Covarrubias, a Chilean professor who was head of counterintelligence for DINA in the 1970s, in the torture and murder of seven detainees was revealed inside the center. His alleged role was first brought to Downie's attention in early 2008 by Center Assistant Professor Martin Edwin Andersen, a senior staff member who earlier, as a senior advisor for policy planning at the Criminal Division of the U.S. Department of Justice, was the first national security whistleblower to receive the U.S. Office of Special Counsel's "Public Servant Award."[10] In an October 1987 investigative report in The Nation, Andersen broke the story of how, in a June 1976 meeting in the Hotel Carrera in Santiago, Kissinger gave the bloody military junta in neighboring Argentina the "green light" for their own dirty "war."[11]

Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by afrodc_ on Wednesday April 28, 2021 @12:32PM (#26971250)
I may not be reading this clearly, but how is the CIA involved in the assassination here? It seems like they had intel that it could happen but didn't order it, execute it or have any direct involvement.
Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by jayd16 on Saturday April 17, 2021 @05:34PM (#26847634)
The assertion was "the US military can and will assassinate US citizens engaging in constitutionally protected activity in the middle of Manhattan."

It really diminishes your point when that is compared to an airstrike on foreign soil.

Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by sneak on Saturday April 17, 2021 @06:48PM (#26848118)
I don't really think the territorial claim on the land where the extrajudicial assassination happens is very relevant to the legal fact of the matter.

We don't say that the FSB attempting to execute Skripal in a UK shopping mall doesn't count because it was in the UK. Murder is murder.

The claim that the IC would assassinate Gellman in New York was made by someone who used to be an actual CIA operative and went through their training.

Re:5G: The outsourced elephant in the room by sudosysgen on Saturday April 17, 2021 @08:07PM (#26848587)
It absolutely doesn't matter where it is. All that means is that the means of murder will change. Instead of being an airstrikes it might be someone off the street paid for the hit or an operative killing them or poisoning them. In both cases, you'd have no way to know. The only places you'd be able to know are in foreign countries where risks of capture and death are much higher and where investigations can't be silenced.