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Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by Sharlin on Sunday April 11, 2021 @11:42AM (#26771081)
And flights costing 29 EUR are simply a market (and policy) failure. In no reasonable sustainably operating economy would we ever have gotten into a situation of flights being cheaper than train trips.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by dsnr on Sunday April 11, 2021 @11:50AM (#26771176)
> And flights costing 29 EUR are simply a market failure

That’s actually the market working as intended. In the case of flights you have competition which drives the price down, in the case of trains you mostly have a monopoly of the national operator which increases prices each year (DB, Germany). Train prices are prohibitively high, and when I face the choice I always end up driving vs taking the train (the price advantage grows larger with the number of people travelling).

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by anigbrowl on Sunday April 11, 2021 @05:27PM (#26773603)
The basic problem is that the market does a poor job of accounting for externalities, so indirect costs (pollution, subsidies) are dumped across whole populations over a long period, thus becoming effectively invisible, while profits are scrupulously accounted for and distributed to a far smaller group of recipients.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by gpvos on Sunday April 11, 2021 @05:25PM (#26773589)
No. It is externalities not properly being accounted for in the cost.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by mschuster91 on Sunday April 11, 2021 @04:33PM (#26773150)
> Train prices are prohibitively high

They didn't need to be, the problem is that Deutsche Bahn is expected to be profitable since two decades (as a result of the failed attempts to privatize it) - and that includes the cost of physical infrastructure, which is enormous.

An airport however is cheap to build (okay, jokes like the BER aside) and operate, not to mention subsidies for regional airports whereas the EU has been pushing for de-subsidizing and liberalization of the railways for decades now.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by makapuf on Sunday April 11, 2021 @12:41PM (#26771616)
Sometimes those 29€ are just the emerged part if the iceberg, with local airports subsidies which distorts said market.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by makapuf on Sunday April 11, 2021 @03:17PM (#26772682)
If you look at this article[0], the subsidies can be 100€ per passenger [0] https://www.lechotouristique.com/article/il-y-a-trop-d-aerop... (french)
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by plantain on Sunday April 11, 2021 @05:45PM (#26773741)
Flights don't pay VAT, for some unfathomably baffling reason. Train tickets do.

It's not just a market failure, it's been engineered this way.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by killtimeatwork on Monday April 12, 2021 @06:14AM (#26777788)
Depends on the country? Domestic flights in Poland are taxed at 8% VAT. International flights are at 0% VAT.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by bsder on Sunday April 11, 2021 @07:15PM (#26774424)
> And flights costing 29 EUR are simply a market (and policy) failure. In no reasonable sustainably operating economy would we ever have gotten into a situation of flights being cheaper than train trips.

Mostly ... you don't.

To get that 29 EUR flight you have to book it WAY in advance, generally be on a trip that isn't super popular, and be willing to have no luggage to speak of.

When we were in England, France and Italy pre-Covid, we priced out moving around on the train vs moving around on planes.

The trains almost always won (sometimes by quite a lot) and had the advantage that you could buy the tickets with a day or two of advance rather than planes which required 2 weeks of advance to get a sane price.

Now, obviously, we were moving between big cities and didn't need a car (because "tourist"). Business travel would probably be a different beast.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by kevindong on Sunday April 11, 2021 @11:53AM (#26771202)
Counterexample: in Summer 2019, I took a one way flight from Rome to Lisbon via Ryanair for $57.40 USD / ~€48.77 (current conversion rates, my receipt was denominated in USD).

That's a 1,160 miles / 1,870 km / ~2.75 hour flight (distance is as the crow flies). A train cannot compete with that. Not that a reasonable train itinerary between Lisbon and Rome exists.

For May 2021 [0], I'm seeing several roundtrip itineraries between Lisbon and Rome for USD$31 / €26 on Ryanair. I think the fact that such a low-priced flight can exist is actually a triumph of capitalism.

[0]: https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s/a5Ea

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by Sharlin on Sunday April 11, 2021 @12:19PM (#26771410)
Yes, the sort of "triumph" that got us into this catastrophically unsustainable situation. Flights are not cheap. It's just that the hidden costs are paid by all of us, including yet unborn humans. This cannot continue.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by Retric on Sunday April 11, 2021 @12:19PM (#26771417)
Work out the fuel costs per passenger mile and that’s a subsidized ticket. Now, airlines often have a surplus of seats on a route and will sell some of them at a nominal loss over flying empty seats, but they couldn’t operate the route if everyone was paying that.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by anodari on Sunday April 11, 2021 @12:07PM (#26771312)
I understood that the ban was only for flights within France.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by anigbrowl on Sunday April 11, 2021 @05:35PM (#26773666)
Every retailer will tell you that cutting prices (or even accepting a small loss) on goods or services that don't make a big profit brings in customers whose happiness with finding a bargain is a more effective advertisement than any the business can issue itself.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by verall on Sunday April 11, 2021 @12:05PM (#26771297)
It would be more of a triumph if those $30 flights were not using leaded fuel, or if there was at least some lead pollution task to encourage people to take different transit options until the airline industry figures it out.

I think, it was much less of a problem, when many less planes were flying.

-- Correction in the comment, Jet-A has no lead. Cursory research suggests its nasty products are mostly organics rather than heavy metals, which is much less bad. Thanks!

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15093276/

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by coryrc on Sunday April 11, 2021 @12:15PM (#26771384)
I don't believe Ryanair flies any piston planes and, thus, does not use any leaded fuel.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by EdwinLarkin on Sunday April 11, 2021 @11:52AM (#26771189)
Railway systems usually dont play well with capitalism as there is very little competition (given that infrastructure and the train operator is usually a state owned company).

Aviation is simply much more efficient.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by Symbiote on Sunday April 11, 2021 @12:13PM (#26771372)
> Aviation is simply much more efficient.

Efficient, how? It uses much more energy, makes more noise and creates more pollution.

The speed has very little to do with the funding model. Flights were still faster in the 1970s when many state-owned airlines operated, and trains are little different when private companies run them (see: several European countries).

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by bluGill on Sunday April 11, 2021 @12:40PM (#26771611)
Don't forget about those rails. A lot of energy is locked in them, not to mention land. Planes need airports and nothing more.

Planes also spend their time where there is less wind resistance to deal with.

Trains are still a win, but it isn't as clear as it seems.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by closeparen on Sunday April 11, 2021 @04:41PM (#26773217)
Tying up capital equipment and personnel for much less time to serve the same journey. Consider San Francisco to Chicago, a route I have done both ways. The flight is 5 hours, the train ride 50 hours. A 737 is more expensive than the California Zephyr trainset, but not by 10x.

I'm not sure what noise has to do with efficiency - I doubt that the energy expended on vibrating the air is physically or economically significant - but it is worth noting that trains are loud. Particularly because regulations written in blood require that they blow their horns three times at every level crossing at all hours.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by Symbiote on Tuesday April 13, 2021 @03:55AM (#26789354)
(Among developed countries I'm familiar with) it's only the USA that has the excessively loud train horns at level crossings, and a lot of crossings. In Europe, lights, bells (or a beeper thing) and automatic barriers are used instead, sometimes with automatic or manual infrared/visible cameras to confirm the crossing is clear of road vehicles.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by EdwinLarkin on Sunday April 11, 2021 @12:21PM (#26771432)
Point-to-point travel is much faster and more efficient with planes than with trains.
Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by jcranmer on Sunday April 11, 2021 @01:20PM (#26771882)
Knowing the history of railroads, this comment is truly spit-take worthy. Railroads are my go-to example for what the "model" capitalistic industry looks like. Historically, the investment boom/bust cycles were driven in large part by railroad mania--most railroads in the 19th century were funded by public stock offerings to raise the capital to build them, producing and popping investment bubbles with almost decadal frequency.

At least in the US, there was surprisingly little public subsidy of railroads. The big exception is in the west, where many lines were financed in part by land grants, but this is not true all of lines (the Great Northern Railroad, for example, had no land grants)--and most of the railroads in the east has no land that could be granted to them at all. Antitrust laws in the US specifically originate from regulating the anticompetitive practice and local monopolies that railroads had. Indeed, many of those practices that motivated the law are now being repeated by airlines without a corresponding modern push to regulate those practices away.

Actual state ownership of the US is rare, both now and historically. The big exceptions are the temporary nationalization of the railroads during WWI and the assumption of the bankrupt Penn Central assets into Conrail (which was divvied up between CSX and NS in 1999). Of course, the US may be unusually competitive on the world scene for modern railroads, with US/Canada essentially three geographic duopolies (BNSF/UP, CP/CN, and CSX/NS).

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by kazen44 on Sunday April 11, 2021 @06:55PM (#26774312)
to give you a bit of history from the European perspective.

most railways in Europe have been build by state programs to kickstart further industrialisation during the later half of the 19th century. prior to rail, the only way to transport bulk goods like coal and iron ore efficiently was through canalways. rails solved the issue of getting the raw goods to the industrial centers where people lived to produce goods efficiently. it also allowed for rapid expansion of cities and town and made cities and town with no access to a waterway far more viable.

privatization of rail only happenend after the cold war, and is mostly seen as a failure in most countries.

Re:French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights by jcranmer on Sunday April 11, 2021 @07:29PM (#26774521)
I believe that's largely a Central/Eastern European perspective, and doesn't apply as much to Western Europe. Countries like the UK, France, Switzerland started out with entirely private systems and nationalized them later (early 20th century).