News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by narrator on Thursday April 08, 2021 @07:17PM (#26744950)
TSMC are the only guys who can do 5nm, and everybody wants 5nm. It's not like you can just push a button on your AWS console and get a new 5nm fab.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by apocalyptic0n3 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @07:35PM (#26745085)
> It's not like you can just push a button on your AWS console and get a new 5nm fab.

I have to admit that I really take for granted how easily it is to spin up additional capacity for projects nowadays. This statement put that into focus for me.

That said, at some point if this continues, the shortages will start to affect AWS, Azure, GCM, DO, Linode, OVH, etc. capacity. And that will get nasty fast.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by xuki on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:26PM (#26745814)
5 days ago the data center my dedicated servers are in caught fire, and I was able to restore everything from back up to DO in 30 minutes. I would be so screwed if there is no capacity from on demand hosting providers.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by nicbou on Friday April 09, 2021 @01:11PM (#26753144)
Likewise.

The pandemic showed us that the supply chain is more frail than we think. I also just finished Wages of Destruction, about economics in Nazi Germany. And at last I explored the nooks and crannies of an abandoned hospital.

It's eye-opening to see how complex a large building is, with all its pipes, wiring, and shafts. That's without considering the satellite buildings, or the specialised equipment on the actual production line.

It's also surprising to see how much depends on components and raw materials produced thousands of kilometres away.

And at last, it becomes obvious that you can't just spin up a new factory, nor can you trivially retool one or re(al)locate thousands of its workers.

Scaling up demands feats of logistics. Scaling down can bring financial ruin to entire regions.

This draws interesting parallels to the production of vaccine. You can't just throw more people at it for the same reasons.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by detaro on Thursday April 08, 2021 @07:38PM (#26745114)
The current overall shortage in the wider ecosystem is not even limited to top-of-line 5nm parts, but the fundamental issue of "you can't just spin up a fab" remains of course.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by ajsnigrutin on Thursday April 08, 2021 @08:35PM (#26745495)
> but the fundamental issue of "you can't just spin up a fab" remains of course.

Why not?

I mean... look at the current plague pandemic - we've been listening that you cannot just create more space in hospitals overnight, or build new rooms, and this and that... but it's not overnight... it's been a year now, and if they started building the first time they said "it cannot be done overnight", we'd have a lot of nice empty rooms now.

I remember waiting for some parts in 2002, that were delayed due to many stupid logistic issues in Korea (fifa world cup was there, then), and the excuse was the same... you cannot just make more factories overnight. Graphics card prices are overinflated, ram prices are inflated, ssd prices are inflated.... basically, anyone who starts building any form of production now, will be able to sell whatever the company puts out without issues.

I know I might sound like a conspiracy theorist, but there is either some cartel deal between huge companies (intel, amd, nvidia, qualcomm,...), to keep prices artificially high and blame parts shortage, or they're all incompetent.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by WrtCdEvrydy on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:55PM (#26745948)
> I know I might sound like a conspiracy theorist, but there is either some cartel deal between huge companies (intel, amd, nvidia, qualcomm,...), to keep prices artificially high and blame parts shortage, or they're all incompetent.

So here's what actually happened. Car companies cancelled their orders because there was this thing called COVID. Those slots on fabs got sold to other people in the entertainment industry because at the time it was believed people would just stay at home and the entertainment sector would need the extra fabs.

In a sudden twist of what could be called "irony", it turns out people are scared of getting on public transit during and after covid so everyone who relied on that or uber/lyft started buying cars so demand for cars went up. Car companies tried buying their slots back kicking off a giant demand hike which basically had people buying fab slots for far more than they are worth... the issue is that those ICs aren't like a graphics card.

If you don't have 5nm chips, well that's fine, you can't produce a graphics card per IC, for a car, there could be dozens of different chips. If your 30nm chips are out of stock, it doesn't matter how many 105nm chips you have in stock, you can't sell half of a car.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by ohazi on Thursday April 08, 2021 @08:54PM (#26745627)
The photolithography machines that you need in order to pattern silicon for etching features smaller than ~20 nm or so are made by one company -- ASML. One machine is about the size of a house, costs >$100 million, and their order book is full for at least the next two years.

A semiconductor fab typically needs several of these machines (maybe only one or two of the best machines for the smallest layers, but more of the coarser machines for the less dense layers) in order to produce chips competitively.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by not_exactly__ on Thursday April 08, 2021 @08:44PM (#26745554)
Me think you grossly under-estimate the complexity of creating a facility that processes basic inputs, a few chemicals, and lots of optics/lights to make state of the art nanometer scale 3D features at enormous volume and very low defect rates.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by ajsnigrutin on Thursday April 08, 2021 @08:54PM (#26745625)
World cup in korea was in 2002... between then and now, many generations (sizes) of semicondctors have been 'invented' (..the method to produce them) and replaced with smaller ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_device_fabricati...

There is a table on the right, and there are rougly 2-3 years between 'generations' - so 2-3 years between starting a new production line of top-of-the-line flagship (eg.) cpus, to making a new production line for even newer, "smaller" (transitors) cpus, and the old line making other, cheaper ones.

I'm not saying that Johnny Sixpack can do it in his garage, but companies like Intel, AMD, samsung, etc. surely could do it in that timeframe, because they're already doing it now.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by ianai on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:35PM (#26745850)
I think the problem may be best addressed by spinning up ASML alternatives and other critical singular fail points/capabilities. Some things like this do rise to a national/global security threat.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by detaro on Thursday April 08, 2021 @08:47PM (#26745577)
Fabs are multi-year projects, and take quite a while to run a profit (since you first have to invest 10s of billions into building one). So "will be able to sell whatever" right now could still mean that the overall thing ends not very profitable once the competition recovers from their outages and finishes their expansion plans. And similarly, the supply chains for the equipment you need to actually build a fab don't magically scale, and are wary of doing so - because again, just because everyone wants their high-end fab equipment now doesn't mean they will in a few years, and they've been bitten by market contractions in the past, so they have little motivation to scale extremely and then struggle because they've satisfied demand. Their order books are basically full already, so you can't just go and equip your shiny new fab quickly. Even if they now wanted to expand more than they expected, them tooling up for faster production would take a while.

In the end, making chips just isn't that high on the overall list of things to be able to opt.out of normal market forces. If it looks like customers will pay enough to make rapid expansion and the changes necessary to enable such rapid expansion worth it, it'll happen.

But demand is not actually that much higher than normal, and thus the investment has limits. You can be sure that everyone is working to finish their expansions as fast as possible (hundreds of billions of investment over the next few years) and get their broken-down fabs back online ASAP, but its not like they suddenly can spend massively more resources on it. Compared to big challenges like fighting COVID its overall a minor concern, and as you point out even that did not go as all-out as it could have.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by Qub3d on Thursday April 08, 2021 @08:49PM (#26745588)
The main pinch-point is lithography machines, from what I have read. Companies like ASML [1] produce these room-sized machines to order, and the turnaround approaches 2 years from PO to delivery, depending on process node and wafer size.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by BostonEnginerd on Thursday April 08, 2021 @08:10PM (#26745327)
The chips on short order are mostly quite old but specialized processes - most are 90nm and up in size. The advanced nodes aren’t very useful for moving power around.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by kingosticks on Thursday April 08, 2021 @08:56PM (#26745643)
Does everyone want 5nm? Would another fab tomorrow be useful? Who's actually shipping 5nm at volume except Apple right now? Are Huawei or were they forced elsewhere? Broadcom 5nm is barely going yet, neither AMD or Nvidia are shipping anything. I think that leaves just 5G stuff from Mediatek and Qualcomm. 7nm is what most of TSMC's customers want to get out the door.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by mr_toad on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:55PM (#26745947)
Want or need? I have a dozen devices on my LAN that don’t use the latest tech. I get by. But if I was going to upgrade my laptop there’s a good chance it would be an M1.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by kingosticks on Friday April 09, 2021 @04:03AM (#26747844)
Demand for Apple's M1 laptop isn't going to be a problem for TSMC if Apple is currently their only customer with volume production of 5nm parts. I'm trying to understand where the idea of any 5nm shortage comes from. The shortages described in this article are nothing to do with 5nm.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by eric_b on Thursday April 08, 2021 @08:59PM (#26745667)
Those ASML EUV machines are like 100-200 million dollars apiece. I can't imagine what the lead time on something like that is. And of course you need people to run them, a space to run them in, and everything else. There can't be too many industries with bigger capital outlays than cutting-edge semi fab.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by brudgers on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:26PM (#26745817)
That's the price of a moderately sized public high school in the US...without considering the land.

For example Pinole Valley High School https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/04/14/west-contra-costa-sc...

Google says Contra Costa County has nine high schools.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by eric_b on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:59PM (#26745969)
I don't understand your comment. Are you refuting that semiconductor fabrication is capital intensive? Are you comparing it somehow to building high schools? Like... what?

The new fab TSMC is building in Arizona is 12 BILLION DOLLARS - for a single fab.

That's 100 of these high schools for the price of a single fab facility.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by defaultname on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:52PM (#26745932)
Most of the shortages are in older process chips.

Having said that, it is pretty remarkable that Apple has gotten themselves in a situation where a supplier has so much leverage over them. TSMC can set the prices and conditions and there isn't a lot anyone can do about it.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by brigade on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:06PM (#26745717)
"5nm" is too simplistic; the material shortage continues upstream to substrates and raw wafers that are used across nodes
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by kube-system on Thursday April 08, 2021 @07:30PM (#26745051)
Samsung does 5nm
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by monocasa on Thursday April 08, 2021 @07:40PM (#26745128)
But at low yields. https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/samsung-repo... Meanwhile TSMC's 5nm somehow had better yields than their 7nm at the same point in the product lifecycle. https://www.anandtech.com/show/16028/better-yield-on-5nm-tha...
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by fomine3 on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:56PM (#26745953)
Also their 5nm performance is not very well compared to TSMC 7nm

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16463/snapdragon-888-vs-exyno...

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by cheeze on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:01PM (#26745679)
I'm sure AWS is working on it though.

Half joking

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by Daho0n on Thursday April 08, 2021 @07:39PM (#26745118)
Much of what is needed doesn't have to be 5nm though. IMO the fastest way to get more production capacity is blocked because of politics. Want more capacity as fast as possible (though that is still not exactly fast) on 5nm? Let China upgrade to better fabs and do the high nm work. But China is the evil enemy surpassing us in our own game so they gotta be held outside.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by randomopining on Thursday April 08, 2021 @08:47PM (#26745578)
I mean they're an autocratic country that co-opted our tech and cleverly used the greed of our corporations and investors to try to sling shot past us.

Then they want to use that new economic power and convert it to military power. Then use the military power to restart a civil war and take over peaceful countries like Taiwan.

Sounds kinda dumb to not try to stop that, lol. I don't think you want to live in a purely might makes right world.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by Daho0n on Friday April 09, 2021 @06:00AM (#26748599)
>I don't think you want to live in a purely might makes right world.

There'd be no more "might makes right" with PRC as the biggest superpower compared to the US. Just a different kind.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by randomopining on Friday April 09, 2021 @09:11AM (#26750082)
Because you say so? Lol.

By what metric? Clearly a country like Nazi Germany would’ve been a bit higher on the “might makes right” scale. Thus if you critically look at the CCP, you could see they are based on autocracy and will spread autocracy.

US is based on democracy with both oligarchal and free market capitalism.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by mlindner on Thursday April 08, 2021 @07:41PM (#26745139)
This has nothing to do with China. China is actually behind, Taiwan, South Korea, and the US in fab technology. China's best fabs are in 28nm area, not 5nm. This is why them getting cut off from western tech via the US's semiconductor sanctions was such a huge deal. They don't have their own fabs capable of making high end products.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by randomopining on Thursday April 08, 2021 @08:46PM (#26745566)
They're seriously at only 28nm?

How does Huawei get those new chips at 7nm?

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by defaultname on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:56PM (#26745950)
No, they aren't at 28nm. They're shipping 14nm at volume, have low-volume R&D yields of 7nm, and are building their own EUV process for 5nm and below.

Sanctioning and restricting China is most certainly going to be a catalyst for a rapid development of domestic advancements (including, of course, surreptitiously stealing it from other countries/companies). Anyone who thinks China won't be right with the top makers in a few short years is fooling themselves.

Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by randomopining on Friday April 09, 2021 @09:11AM (#26750087)
So they’re basically at Intel level?
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by unmole on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:22PM (#26745792)
The same way everyone else does, from TSMC.
Re:MacBook and iPad production delayed as supply crunch hits... by Daho0n on Friday April 09, 2021 @06:02AM (#26748603)
You are agreeing to what I said. If China had 5nm why would they need to upgrade to be able to help?