News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by tenebrisalietum on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @02:37PM (#26729041)
If your speech is really valuable you shouldn't depend on the free services of a privately-owned ad-supported company meant for streaming games to propagate it.

Furthermore speech as the forefathers probably meant was people physically going to town squares and talking there.

There is free press, which is what social media is more like, and the owner of a press has the right to decide what he/she will print--the Constitution prevents government interference, not private interference.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by cblconfederate on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:57PM (#26733771)
Then we need public services for communication to save the world from private dystopia, the same way we have public roads. Every country should set up a free mastodon account and email for every citizen.

Plus i m not sure the principle of Free speech is that limited, speech doesnt count as speech if it cant reach anyone. And giving to a handful of employees the power to shape the messaging of millions is directly affecting democracy itself.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by tenebrisalietum on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:52AM (#26738664)
We need public infrastructure for communication that doesn't create conditions where all we do is try to emulate older broadcast media models such as TVs, radio, or newspaper.

This means 25Mbps uncapped IPv6 (no NAT) symmetric bandwidth for everyone and safe harbor laws for individuals and not just corporations. I think at that point centralized services for Internet-based communication become unnecessary, though centralized storage for things like long video posts may still be needed.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by cblconfederate on Thursday April 08, 2021 @10:08AM (#26738835)
We have public radio though, not just public antennas.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by stonogo on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:30AM (#26735100)
Perhaps you'd be interested in HAM radio or public-access TV. I don't see why the answer has to be national.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by cblconfederate on Thursday April 08, 2021 @03:07AM (#26735931)
TV is 20th century. It has to be public the same way that roads are public.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by stonogo on Friday April 09, 2021 @01:42PM (#26753579)
Gatekept by testing and licensure requirements?
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by malandrew on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @07:48PM (#26733148)
> Furthermore speech as the forefathers probably meant was people physically going to town squares and talking there.

Facebook and other such platforms have become a town square of sorts.

This idea that the principles that founding fathers championed, especially the Bill of Rights, should somehow be restricted only to what was possible with the technology of their time is pretty preposterous.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by mahogany on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @10:00PM (#26734215)
>This idea that the principles that founding fathers championed, especially the Bill of Rights, should somehow be restricted only to what was possible with the technology of their time is pretty preposterous.

This is true, but also, the town squares were public places. Are you suggesting to nationalize Facebook?

Adding to this, maybe the best thing to do is to just fund a public social media site, where constitutional protections apply, and treat that as a virtual town square.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by esyir on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @10:55PM (#26734581)
Everyone saying "just build your own lol" is either accidentally or deliberately ignoring network effects and said impact on social media dominance. The government writes legislation, it doesn't build, or build well anyway. This goes 10x for tech platforms, where the US government is beyond incompetent and will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

I would rather suggest something along the lines of this.

At a certain scale (user count), sufficient implicit selection of users and their content revokes section 230 rights. If you start implicitly removing specific viewpoints and topics it's no longer "user-generated content" and is now your content. Of course there have to be provisions for explicit content scope and spam, but that's roughly where I would start.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by mahogany on Thursday April 08, 2021 @09:33AM (#26738478)
I think this issue is more nuanced than you (and many other people every time these threads comes up) make it out to be, which is why I brought up this point. Saying "certain scale duh" is just as an empty idea as "just build your own lol".

Can you explicitly tell me how you would codify that scale in law? And whatever you make the cap, what then is the incentive for a website to allow more users over the cap?

> Of course there have to be provisions for explicit content scope and spam

"Of course" they can moderate spam. Can you tell me how to objectively identify spam?

If I have a religious forum, and it passes the user cap, suddenly we have ourselves a public town square. Then someone comes in and starts saying "God isn't real!" several times in literally every thread. Is that spam? Because to me, it looks like an exercise of free speech, so you can't erase those messages. Certainly if someone was repeating that in a public space, we wouldn't silence them. By exceeding the user cap, that site would become a worse experience because you've severely limited moderation abilities by your proposed law.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by esyir on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:55PM (#26741758)
Sure, let's start with a million and go from there. Why would they want to go bigger? Money, that's why.

If someone was repeating that in a public space, we probably wouldn't, but if he had a series of megaphones screaming that at everyone, ala spammimg everyone's convos, many societies have laws against just that. Much of law is already using a "reasonable man". Standard, so why not this one?

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by mahogany on Thursday April 08, 2021 @03:08PM (#26742512)
> Why would they want to go bigger? Money, that's why.

But a big reason behind all of this censorship on private platforms is that companies are trying to appease advertisers and customers downstream. It's already about money, because we're talking about private enterprise. Coca-cola doesn't want an ad appearing next to a comment promoting Nazism on your all-speech-must-be-allowed platform. It seems to me that forcing sites to have any and all content once they reach a certain size would do the opposite of generating revenue.

> If someone was repeating that in a public space, we probably wouldn't, but if he had a series of megaphones screaming that at everyone, ala spammimg everyone's convos, many societies have laws against just that.

This may or may not be legal in the US. But even if it is, I have a hard time imagining how we would define spam on the internet in a way that won't get subjectively abused and bring us halfway back to where we are now anyway.

How about this approach: force companies at the level of ISPs, domain name registrars, payment processors, and maybe cloud providers, to allow any legal content and not censor. That seems like infrastructure that's too hard to build from the ground up. Anything built on top of that, like a website, is free to act how it acts today.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by esyir on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:39AM (#26735428)
With the way that things go, I won't go as far as to nationalise them, but I'd rather regulate them in ways that maintain said "public squares"

Somewhere in between, communication is far too critical for private monopolies to have a stranglehold over.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by makomk on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @02:55PM (#26729322)
> If your speech is really valuable you shouldn't depend on the free services of a privately-owned ad-supported company meant for streaming games to propagate it.

Remember, this announcement is about speech that occurs outside of Twitch entirely. So what you'd really need to argue is that anyone who ever wants to be able to speak freely on their own time shouldn't depend on income from big companies... including, at the rate things are going, even income from minimum wage retail jobs.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by Spartan-S63 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @02:55PM (#26729320)
So much this. Society is balking at the cession of power from governments to private companies and are all of a sudden upset that private companies don't have to grant them any rights.

If we really want free speech platforms, lobby government to craft spaces for it in the digital age. Instead of muddying public rights in private property, let's just fund more public property (i.e. nationalized social media platform).

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by SV_BubbleTime on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @04:09PM (#26730481)
> If we really want free speech platforms, lobby government to craft spaces for it in the digital age.

“A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take everything away.”

I disagree this is a job for government directly. No, I don’t want government socialized Facebook!

I want the government to enforce the spirit of antitrust law. They are ignoring that a competitor to Facebook CAN NOT exist because Facebook will smother or absorb them. I would like government to compel Facebook to use open data standards I can use to take my data to a service that isn’t actively trying to psychologically bleed me daily.

If Google trying hard couldn’t dent Facebook, there is no chance an organic startup will do it. And double extra certain a state run expensive and uninspired clone would do it - not to mention you’d be more wise to trust Facebook with your data than the government directly.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by esyir on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @10:42PM (#26734509)
Strong disagree here. Network effects are king here, and social media is a natural mono/oligopoly. Overcoming this requires the construction of a superior and more addictive product, and the incentives just aren't there for such platforms.

The smart move is to hit them with the hammer of regulation here. They can either be the small exclusive club with tight control over their members and their behavior, or the mass market app with minimal control over their userbase.

The alternative is to have the full cyberpunk future, where "I like <wrongthink>" means being cut off from everything. Banks, search, email. We're already seeing the slope, and it's pretty damn slippery.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by thephyber on Thursday April 08, 2021 @01:50AM (#26735493)
> Overcoming this requires the construction of a superior and more addictive product, and the incentives just aren't there for such platforms.

Nope. You can have a smaller, simpler substitute if you have comparative advantage in some other niche.

DuckDuckGo is making a decent showing against Google, despite arriving on the scene almost 2 decades later. A handful of righty / unPC social media properties (Gab, Parler, whatever Lindell’s app is called this week, etc) are slowly eating into Facebook/Twitter market share because they promise less moderation.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by esyir on Thursday April 08, 2021 @02:18AM (#26735660)
Didn't said righty social media properties literally have to face existential threats like getting multiple hosting providers drop them?

Moreover, this is only something that's fine if you accept ceding control of the vast majority of communication to private control. I. E, we now get cyberpunk thoughtcrime dystopia.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by thephyber on Friday April 09, 2021 @03:47PM (#26755214)
> if you accept ceding control of the vast majority of communication to private control

When our lifetimes has it not always been this case? Newspapers, television, internet have always been this way (owned by an organization and provided with contractual limitations). Talking face to face in your own home is the only unabridged communication method, even in the USA. I have always found this issue strange that people demand that App Stores, cloud platforms, web hosting, etc must allow any content despite the companies’ freedom of association (and disassociation). We aren’t talking about companies which are covered by Common Carrier laws.

And “existential” doesn’t mean what you think it means. They are rebuilding on different platforms and other substitutes are coming online.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by _carbyau_ on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @08:25PM (#26733467)
I thought that was the Internet.

Instead of a centralised government backed platform, how about a decentralised platform.

Maybe something like Signal-with-Blog-Posts, with "public" posts hosted on IPFS?

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by throwaway33432 on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @04:42PM (#26730953)
There's no cession of power from governments to corporations; consider the recurrent social media hearings in DC, which as far I can tell are effectively just the bullying of CEOs to censor less/more.

Even this latest Delta, Coca-Cola, etc. seems to be just bullying: https://twitter.com/AmyBeePhoenix/status/1379295393301868546

It's just an upheaval of the elite.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by esyir on Thursday April 08, 2021 @12:44AM (#26735175)
You call it bullying, I call it ineffective posturing and pretending to get things done. Feels to me like a song and dance to placate the voters while not actually doing anything with impact.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by theandrewbailey on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @04:16PM (#26730573)
We arguably gave up that freedom when governments started forcing people to bake cakes with specific messages.
Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by ProfessorLayton on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @04:43PM (#26730961)
This is such a bad faith argument. No one is being forced to write specific messages, but merely follow the law. The law that states that to legally do business then the business will not discriminate against certain classes of people — This is not unusual, there are tons of laws a business must follow to stay open.

Protected classes are narrowly defined. You may or may not have an issue with what those protected classes are, but that's a separate argument. The main argument is that businesses must follow the law to stay in business.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @09:54PM (#26734171)
> We arguably gave up that freedom when governments started forcing people to bake cakes with specific messages.

Who won that case again?

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by dimgl on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @02:48PM (#26729224)
Just because you (and dozens of others on this site) continue make this argument over and over doesn't mean that it isn't a problem.

Edit: someone built that town square. Someone founded those forums. At the end of the day, someone is always in control of something.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by TameAntelope on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @02:57PM (#26729353)
Free speech includes reacting to what someone else has said.

You can make an argument about whether or not people should have thicker skin, but you can't make an argument that people should not be allowed to react to speech without forfeiting the moral concept of freedom of speech.

Someone did build the town square, and if that someone was a private entity, that someone can kick everyone right the heck out of the town square, because it's theirs. If the people of the town want to make that reality different, they should probably band together and purchase the town square and own it collectively, as a government.

If you think Twitch, Twitter, HN or Reddit are such critical infrastructure, then you should lobby your government to purchase them.

Re:Twitch will ban users for 'severe misconduct' that occurs... by ipaddr on Wednesday April 07, 2021 @04:23PM (#26730694)
They are like a mall. It appears to be a public space. It shares the characterics of one. But at it's heart it is a private space with camera everywhere and eager to throwout those who do not appear to be the norm.

Homeless, poor, young and oddities get removed from malls for being themselves. We're seeing the same online.

Governments don't buy malls. Malls are designed to get you to spend. These sites want you to spend and if you do or don't they will send all of the info they collected about you and sell it to someone else.

We need more hobbiest sites. Government should provide free spaces.