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Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by question000 on Monday April 05, 2021 @11:42AM (#26700473)
Well the life of the average Chinese citizen has improved substantially in the last 30 years, no Western country can really say that.
Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by jjb123 on Monday April 05, 2021 @11:48AM (#26700532)
We made those same moves 100 years earlier, with liberty intact. If North Korea made this relative progress over the next 30 years (and 70 years after South Korea), this same argument would suggest there’s something we should copy there.
Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by sudosysgen on Monday April 05, 2021 @12:01PM (#26700674)
Yes, in 160 years, as opposed to 30, and then solved many problems we aren't able to solve.

No one is saying that authoritarian governments are good, but opposition to efficient governments just makes life worse for everyone.

Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by mc32 on Monday April 05, 2021 @12:14PM (#26700854)
Any country in a retrograde economy has the benefit of existing modern technology to adopt as well as the absence of legacy encumbrances, making it easier to play catch-up.
Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by sudosysgen on Monday April 05, 2021 @09:19PM (#26706929)
And yet, efficient government involvement seems to yield much better results than other countries with "retrograde economies".
Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by Semiapies on Monday April 05, 2021 @12:56PM (#26701506)
It's similar to the "miracle" of Soviet industrialization. The USSR hired scads of advisors from Western companies to direct their efforts, then chest-thumped about socialism.

Or, for that matter, the Nazi economic "miracle". In their case, they started from the wreckage of WW1 and the Weimar Republic, but they used knowledge and corporate organization that predated both to rebuild, while letting their ideology and leadership take credit.

Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by sudosysgen on Monday April 05, 2021 @09:26PM (#26706969)
There was no Nazi economic miracle - it was built on debt and was unsustainable, which is why it's discounted. Not because somehow it used existing expertise, of course it did, that's entirely normal.

As far as that, I don't see how hiring foreign advisors somehow make your own economic achievements worthless - anyone can do that, and it's stupid to expect everyone to reinvent the wheel.

Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by Semiapies on Monday April 05, 2021 @09:53PM (#26707126)
There was no Nazi economic miracle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes

As far as that, I don't see how hiring foreign advisors somehow make your own economic achievements worthless

Because there were no "own economic achievements" in this case. The USSR claimed to pioneer a new and superior economic system to the capitalist West, but their greatest period of growth and improvement was accomplished through Western direction.

Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by sudosysgen on Monday April 05, 2021 @10:43PM (#26707428)
It wasn't through Western direction - they did not implement free capital market, which was the "Western direction".

They imported technical experts from the West to help them design and build things until they figured out how to do it themselves. That is orthogonal to the economic system.

Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by Semiapies on Monday April 05, 2021 @12:43PM (#26701299)
What problems do you imagine that the Chinese government has solved which Western governments haven't?

It certainly hasn't solved violent oppression of minorities, though admittedly it's more industrious and organized in that field than any Western government.

Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by sudosysgen on Monday April 05, 2021 @09:24PM (#26706961)
>What problems do you imagine that the Chinese government has solved which Western governments haven't?

I'm not imagining anything. For one, China has been able to deal with the pandemic much better than the average Western government, beyond that there is the issue of infrastructure development such as high-speed rail, internet connectivity, etc.., as well as the issue of staying away from major wars, and so on. That's not to say it's overall any better, but that Western governments do everything better is simply false.

>It certainly hasn't solved violent oppression of minorities, though admittedly it's more industrious and organized in that field than any Western government.

Since you're making the comparison, I don't think the Western massacre of around 150 million minorities for it's development nor the murder of 1 million+ people in the Middle East for a recent example, or the millions in penal labour, is anything that the Chinese have to envy. Murder and opression works just as well in "free" governments, thank you - it's just exported, for the most part.

Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by Semiapies on Monday April 05, 2021 @10:15PM (#26707253)
"For one, China has been able to deal with the pandemic much better than the average Western government"

Ah, a shift of goalposts from "many problems we aren't able to solve" to "better than the average". Meanwhile, Western and heavily Western-influenced countries like New Zealand, South Korea, and Japan have done much better than China regarding COVID, without all the authoritarianism.

"as well as the issue of staying away from major wars"

Give or take at least eleven million war deaths in WW2 and the Korean war. (And, pointedly, excluding the larger Chinese government democides of its own people.) If we take that to a round century, we get another three million dead or so. You really are cribbing from the same bizarre talking points as the other guy in this thread, aren't you?

"I don't think the Western massacre of around 150 million minorities for it's development"

Ah, but there's the problem. You're comparing centuries of history of the West--which would be comparable to the wars and imperial abuses inflicted on its neighbors by China over centuries of its history--to what China is doing right now with a system of concentration camps. That's not just tu quoque, it's downright sleazy, especially when you cite "millions in penal labour" as a defense of the PRC.

(It's also telling that you keep referring to "the West" when you clearly mean "the US".)

Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by sudosysgen on Monday April 05, 2021 @11:30PM (#26707696)
>(It's also telling that you keep referring to "the West" when you clearly mean "the US".)

The West has implemented NATO and thus offloaded most of it's foreign intervention to the US in exchange for other concessions.

>Give or take at least eleven million war deaths in WW2 and the Korean war. (And, pointedly, excluding the larger Chinese government democides of its own people.) If we take that to a round century, we get another three million dead or so. You really are cribbing from the same bizarre talking points as the other guy in this thread, aren't you?

China was in a defensive position in WW2, they didn't have a choice. As for democides, sure, those are pretty bad, do you want to compare them to the atrocities of the third Reich or does that also not count as the West? I kept West to West.

>Ah, but there's the problem. You're comparing centuries of history of the West--which would be comparable to the wars and imperial abuses inflicted on its neighbors by China over centuries of its history--to what China is doing right now with a system of concentration camps. That's not just tu quoque, it's downright sleazy, especially when you cite "millions in penal labour" as a defense of the PRC.

No, I compared the million of deaths in less than 20 years to that, after you made the comparison in the other comment. I'm not a making a defence, I'm responding to your whataboutism in kind. Just as easily I could have read the above comment as defense of the murder of a million people in the Middle East by comparing it to mere reeducation camps, which is downright sleazy, but I didn't, because I assumed you were arguing in good faith.

From someone who lives literally anywhere outside of the West, including Muslim countries, the atrocities of the PRC are very comparable to those of the West.

People keep thinking that only authoritarian government commit attrocities, while their own governments commit warcrimes at the same time. What cognitive dissonance.

Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by andrepd on Monday April 05, 2021 @04:40PM (#26704409)
Better that it took 200 or 300 and we have advanced liberties instead of a totalitarian state. There's no amount of prosperity that pays for a dystopian state like China.
Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by sudosysgen on Monday April 05, 2021 @09:19PM (#26706925)
We certainly did not have liberties much beyond modern day China, back in those days you risked your life by unionising.
Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by metalens on Monday April 05, 2021 @12:06PM (#26700729)
I'd like to add that those moves we (assuming you're referring to the US) made 100 years earlier were not made with liberty intact. A lot of our progress was built on the back of slavery and racial discrimination at scale in housing, education, transportation, jobs, etc.
Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by mc32 on Monday April 05, 2021 @12:12PM (#26700823)
Slavery isn’t in dispute, nor segregation, however I’d posit that those elements dragged down society and the economy rather than strengthened it (it was detrimental to progress). Same as serf slavery in Czarist Russia before liberalization, it dragged down their economy immensely.
Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by Semiapies on Monday April 05, 2021 @01:19PM (#26701779)
Also, the genuine improvements of the last 40-50 years in China come from abandoning communism in the economic arena and embracing markets. Just, you know, without politically liberalizing.
Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by echelon on Monday April 05, 2021 @11:44AM (#26700487)
That's because the West already made those improvements and there are no longer any low hanging fruit.
Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by asdff on Monday April 05, 2021 @01:57PM (#26702253)
The west made some of these improvements 70 years ago but follow up maintenance, replacement, and expansion never came.

The built environment of the U.S. has changed remarkably little in the past 40 years, and we are paying for this stasis today with our housing crisis from not building enough housing supply, our congested and crumbling roadways, our lack of transit infrastructure investment (NYC subway has been frozen in time for almost a century practically, and all we can celebrate elsewhere are a handful of light rail lines that usually sit in traffic with the cars), we've voted to defund our schools, and have refused to expand our public healthcare system to those younger than 65 as originally planned in order to protect private insurance industries.

The only improvement the west has made in the last 40 years was figuring out how to move a greater proportion of its wealth into the hands of the few, and iPhones I guess.

Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by question000 on Monday April 05, 2021 @11:52AM (#26700572)
I'm sorry China has solved many problems the West is still working on. They've had public funded healthcare/education from the medieval era and they haven't been involved in any major wars and yet still dictate policy in the region.
Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by Semiapies on Monday April 05, 2021 @12:12PM (#26700826)
Disregarding who actually had access to that healthcare and education (since by similar definitions of who had access, the West had both public services by the classical Greek era)...No major wars? Really?

Even ignoring the phrasing that could be read as claiming no major wars since the medieval era, we don't have to go so far back. I mean, sure, the Cultural Revolution killed more Chinese people than WW2 and the Korean war did combined, but that's still eleven million or so Chinese people dead in those conflicts.

Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by kansface on Monday April 05, 2021 @02:40PM (#26702844)
China is responsible for murdering many 10s, possibly 100 million of its own citizens and is actively and purposefully engaged in genocide of its own people right now. I have a very hard time separating the good from the bad here.

> they haven't been involved in any major wars and yet still dictate policy in the region.

As far as I know, the last major war China fought in was when they invaded Vietnam in 1979 after Vietnam had invaded Cambodia (Chinese ally) to get rid of the Khmer Rouge (the same regime that killed everyone who wore glasses because they may have been reading too much)...

Re:Tim O'Reilly: The Internet Is Being Scapegoated in a Lot ... by zajio1am on Monday April 05, 2021 @09:12PM (#26706873)
Most western countries that were part of communist bloc can say that.