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Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by foxhop on Sunday April 04, 2021 @09:20AM (#26689198)
Industrial Agricultural is a biohazard. We need to embrace the methods we used to feed ourselves for millions of years, with nature instead of in opposition of nature.

Reference: https://archive.org/details/permaculture1adesignersmanualbyb...

Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by zokier on Sunday April 04, 2021 @09:52AM (#26689383)
> we used to feed ourselves for millions of years

Use of fire at all emerged about 1.5 million years ago. Homo Sapiens emerged about 300 thousand years ago. First signd of any sort of agriculture are from about 15 thousand years ago. Stone age ended and we got first bronze tools less than 10 thousand years ago.

The only method we have had "for millions of years" is hunter-gathering with stone tools.

Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by IgorPartola on Sunday April 04, 2021 @10:33AM (#26689707)
Not only this but ancient agriculture supported fewer humans with a lot more work. This romanticized idea of growing food the old fashioned way and forget today’s busy way of life omits the part of doing nothing but growing food from not figuratively dawn to dusk. I spent some time in my youth farming the old fashioned way: hand tools only, carrying water from somewhere else, removing pests and weeds by hand. It is a terribly labor intensive process that managed to supplement my family’s food needs but not eliminate the need for purchased food by any means. We managed to do literally nothing else. We certainly couldn’t have fed anyone else since we didn’t have any kind of excess.

I don’t like industrial food. It is killing the planet abs pretty quickly. But it’s not doing it because farmers are evil. It’s because it the cheapest way to produce food. If we as a society want to go to a place where food costs 10-100x as much while availability goes down by about the same amount, let’s figure out how we will prevent mass starvation and population decline. But if the GP expects that farmers will switch to compost abs hand tools, they should probably expect to pay a lot more for a lot less food.

Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by Scoundreller on Sunday April 04, 2021 @11:39AM (#26690298)
I’d argue that the average western person’s food budget comes from:

1) desire to eat « fresh » foods out-of-season (greenhouses, air transport, lengthy controlled-atmosphere storage)

2) feeding food to food and getting 1/10th back (feeding corn to a cow)

3) desire for labour-intensive foods. Potatoes can be straightforward harvested from a field by a machine. Alfalfa (or anything in a greenhouse) cannot.

I think the biggest barrier to going back to « the old way » is not having manufactured fertilizer. Nobody cares if the water came by pump instead of by hand. But I supposed over-watered at the end = more water in the product instead of useful matter.

Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by IgorPartola on Sunday April 04, 2021 @12:38PM (#26690885)
Why stop there? Nutritional algae genetically engineered to balance macro and micro nutrients with any artificial flavor and texture surely is cheaper. Grow it in a jar at home.
Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by Scoundreller on Sunday April 04, 2021 @02:57PM (#26691902)
At the end of the day, an algae farm is solar powered and much lower yield than anything else you could grow with the same energy input.
Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by nitrogen on Sunday April 04, 2021 @01:56PM (#26691476)
Alfalfa is baled by machines, no?
Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by Scoundreller on Sunday April 04, 2021 @02:56PM (#26691891)
It’s asparagus I was thinking about.

Was an issue in Germany:

https://m.dw.com/en/seasonal-workers-flock-to-germany-for-as...

As with many labour-intensive crops, people want to eat it, but not do the work involved themselves.

Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by zokier on Sunday April 04, 2021 @05:21PM (#26692955)
I wonder how much improved robotics will change the picture. Labor intensive practices and crops might become more feasible if we can get robots to do that labor. Afaik agriculture is already moving in that direction with very fancy advanced tractors etc (I don't actually know anything about ag).

One issue that I foresee is that if something needs a very specialized robot, then the market might not be big enough to warrant the development cost. Undoubtedly it makes lot of sense to automate something like wheat or whatnot bulk crop because there is just tons of that around. But asparagus or something might be too niche?

Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by nitrogen on Sunday April 04, 2021 @04:58PM (#26692773)
As with many labour-intensive crops, people want to eat it, but not do the work involved themselves.

Ah, yes. The best asparagus is hand-picked the day of consumption, and it would be ideal if picked by the people eating it. I grew up in an area that used to have asparagus fields, so asparagus grew "wild" along the fences and ditchbanks. I would occasionally help my parents cut the day's wild asparagus for dinner. I hated it as a kid, but really grew to appreciate how good fresh asparagus is when compared to what has to be mass produced and shipped, because, as you say, nobody wants to do the labor.

Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by dghughes on Sunday April 04, 2021 @11:53AM (#26690450)
I live in a rural area with farming and fishing as main industries. Many of the farms are family owned due to the limited land area here (island). Farmers want to grow food for people many have done it for generations. The rural area and nature is what they love. They want to grow food in a way that's as healthy as possible they don't want to deal with agricultural herbicides and pesticides.

But many people are in denial about how much work is needed to grow the food that feeds everyone. Crop yields need to be high and costs low at the grocery store end but farmers often only get around 200 dollars per ton for their hard effort.

Here's an old article from my region: https://www.theguardian.pe.ca/opinion/it-costs-a-pile-to-gro...

* Land $3 to $5 million

* Equipment $1 million

* Storage $1 million (shared/co-op or separate organization)

* Farmer profit ~$20,000 (16 hour days all spring/summer/fall) - other costs and taxes

Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by zokier on Sunday April 04, 2021 @09:26AM (#26689223)
You mean cut the world population by order of magnitude and have majority of the populace slave on fields for a pittance. Sounds delightful.
Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by dundarious on Sunday April 04, 2021 @09:38AM (#26689284)
Have you read their link? That doesn’t seem like the charitable interpretation of their views, though I share your desire to avoid that fate.
Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by foxhop on Sunday April 04, 2021 @09:33AM (#26689261)
That's not at all what I said or mean.

Working with nature means using natural systems to produce food with less human energy and fossil fuels, and chemicals, and cutting down forests.

A quick quote from the referenced work:

""" The pragmatic and practical approach to the main body of this work largely omits reference to those visions or beliefs classifiable as spiritual or mystical; not because these are not a normal part of human experience, but because they are arrived at as a result of long contemplation or intense involvement with the mysteries that eternally surround us.

We may “dream" understanding, but it is something we cannot demand, define, or teach to others; it is for each of us to develop. There are things that nobody else can help us with, but in a book written to help people make real-life decisions, to build new landscapes, to regenerate damaged forests, and to lighten our load on earth, the present need is for clear and practical approaches. In the preceding chapters, well-tried and common- sense techniques and strategies of earth restoration have been described and figured.

All of this comes to naught if we, as a people, continue to invest in arms and destruction, to permit land abuse, and to fail to tackle the social and political impediments to reclaiming desertified and abused lands, or even to prevent the poisoning of land. Thus, the following sections give strategies for change in the social and economic areas of society.

These strategies may, in fact, be of more assistance to real change than the skills of land management, for society has far more competent farmers and engineers than it has ethical ... """

Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by luckylion on Sunday April 04, 2021 @10:36AM (#26689733)
> produce food with less human energy and fossil fuels, and chemicals, and cutting down forests

It requires less input, less labor, less land --- why isn't it already trashing the market by simply being much cheaper?

Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by jayjader on Sunday April 04, 2021 @02:29PM (#26691717)
Not that this is a sure-fire explanation, but off the top of my head I can think of at least 2 industries that would have vested interests in suppressing permaculture: pesticides & fertilizers. Annecdotally, many farmers here in France are straight up taught their trade by instructional material made by fertilizer, pesticide, and seed/grain manufacturers. So they might not even be aware of potential "better" options.

An imperfect analogy is that legalizing cannabis requires less labor & more funds than keeping it illegal, yet we're still hesitating to do that in many countries.

Humans (and thus most markets) have other incentives than simply having things for cheaper.

Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by belorn on Sunday April 04, 2021 @12:20PM (#26690717)
A first good step would be to add the external cost of fertilizers to the price. We are all paying for the destruction of oceans, the result of using fossil fuels in the production chain, and the by-product which get stored in large pools like this, and yet they can easily out compete more ecological minded production since the cost get applied to society at large rather than the industrial farm that bought the fertilizer.
Re:Florida state of emergency with millions of gallons of “r... by a_crc on Sunday April 04, 2021 @10:02AM (#26689448)
Millions of years? Agriculture is less than 120,000 years old by most accounts. Are you suggesting the bulk of humanity returns to hunting and gathering? Even then accounts of early human history have us emerging less than a million years ago. I think permaculture practices have their benefits but that kind of hyperbole doesn't help the cause.