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Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by VelNZ on Thursday April 01, 2021 @06:54PM (#26667290)
Hi all, sole developer here! Creodocs has been over 6 years of work in my spare time and it's great to finally launch it!

The idea for Creodocs came about after I launched https://LaTeXTemplates.com and https://LaTeXTypesetting.com in 2012 and 2013, respectively. I noticed that academic documents and books consist almost entirely of content that changes across multiple instances of the template used to make them, but business documents are much more likely to consist of large proportions of static content. Think of receipts you receive from an online retailer; that company's information, branding and layout of the document doesn't change at all, but your account number, name, address and items purchased change.

I thought, well, what if I use the power of LaTeX to create virtually any design imaginable (combined with the ability to do math, use variables, etc), but abstract away the code (which is hard to master and archaic by modern standards), to allow users to specify just those dynamic parts of a document they need to fill out and keep the rest unchangeable.

Enter Creodocs, a document creation platform with a collection of templates available to all users, and the ability to add your own via a LaTeX template with variables specified. Variables each accept specific content types (int, bool, string, float) with a maximum length. Private templates can be shared with others, and there are billing groups to manage spending centrally. The idea is that a small/medium business would create (or have me create) a set of templates for documents they constantly produce, and then each of their staff (who don't know what LaTeX is) can log in and simply fill out a web form and get a consistent beautiful PDF document immediately. There is also the ability to create hundreds or thousands of documents at once using a spreadsheet, or create documents via an API without touching the website at all.

I'd love some feedback on the idea and implementation! At this stage, if you're interested in using it for your business, send me an email and you're welcome to use it all you want for free if I can get some feedback.

I'm also happy to chat about how the LaTeX world has changed in the last 10 years, or about how I've managed to have a steady stream of commercial clients willing to pay me to create custom LaTeX templates through my typesetting service.

Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by raylad on Thursday April 01, 2021 @09:03PM (#26668158)
My reaction to the expiring credits-based pricing was to feel anxious.

Also the fact that cost is not easy to calculate creates a barrier to understanding what the cost would be, which less-motivated people may not bother overcoming.

What made you choose this model?

Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by VelNZ on Thursday April 01, 2021 @09:18PM (#26668232)
It was certainly hard to choose the pricing model. I tried to explain it in the "Why Credits? Why Not Dollars or Subscriptions?" section here: https://www.creodocs.com/support?section=credits

Ultimately, I don't know who is going to use the platform. It's created in a way that it can be just as useful for a random person who wants to make a few invoices per month, someone who wants to make 10,000 payslips every 2 weeks, and someone who wants to hook it up to their product to pump in data and receive a link to a PDF via the API. The first person would not pay for a subscription, it's just not worth it at their usage level. The second has burst bulk usage which should be discounted. The third has some level of sustained usage over time.

Those 3 use cases are covered by the 7 days, 30 days and 2 years pricing structures. If you're a casual user, pay a bit more and don't worry about expiration. If you're a bulk user, you get a discount. Everyone else can treat it like a subscription and get the best of both worlds.

I looked to websites that do similar things for ideas, and the closest I could come up with was sites like ShutterStock which also have a credit system where the more you buy the cheaper it is. I believe their credits expire after a fixed period too, but you don't get a discount for how long which is a bit more specific to my product.

Thanks for the feedback! How would you prefer to see a service like this priced that wouldn't cause price anxiety? I'd love to hear different ideas since this can be changed.

Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by smoldesu on Thursday April 01, 2021 @09:27PM (#26668279)
>Credits may seem like a dark pattern of obfuscating cost and adding unnecessary complication. This is certainly not the intention and this section aims to explain why credits are a good system for you and for Creodocs.

If something seems like a dark pattern, it is. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the ultimate judge of what is dark/what's not is the end user, and sending them a leaflet about how good it is doesn't do much to assuage their fears. I understand your motivations here, and sympathize with you as a developer: but as a user, I couldn't justify integrating this into my workflow.

Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by VelNZ on Thursday April 01, 2021 @09:33PM (#26668303)
Noted, and I really appreciate the honesty. I'd love to hear your thoughts on alternative pricing models!
Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by smoldesu on Thursday April 01, 2021 @09:52PM (#26668369)
The number-one item on my wishlist for a product like this is the option to self-host, but I guess I understand if that isn't very financially viable. For the service you're providing, though, I think you could benefit quite a bit from open-sourcing the core technologies and then offering a package with support/automatic hosting/commercial licenses for business use.
Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by lordfosco on Friday April 02, 2021 @04:22AM (#26669887)
I highly encourage you to check out speedata publisher [1] by the berlin-based developer Patrick Gundlach.

He is a well known figure in the TeX community and has created a (open-source [2]/self-hostable) document creation solution on top of LuaTeX.

You can simply run that from the command-line and integrate it in your workflow but it also comes with a server integration that provides you with a REST API.

Admittedly there is some kind of learning curve (even for LaTeX literate people as he is using an XML/HTML abstraction layer on top of it) - but that also keeps it interesting for users who have never played mich with any TeX-language prior to that date.

[1]: https://www.speedata.de/en/ [2]: https://github.com/speedata/publisher

Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by VelNZ on Thursday April 01, 2021 @10:02PM (#26668414)
You're suggesting something similar to what Overleaf did: they're the most popular online LaTeX editor used by many institutions and are now open source. It's certainly worked for them!

I'm not strictly opposed to the idea of self-hosting, although it would be far easier to pull out the API + queue + worker elements of the product rather than allowing self-hosting the whole thing. That way you self-host the production side and the document data doesn't leave your servers (which is likely to be a big deal for many businesses), but your templates and API calls are compatible with the online version of Creodocs. I'll try to get some more feedback on the pricing model and think about it myself, since it sounds like it's a bad one now. Thanks again for your feedback!

Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by pvg on Thursday April 01, 2021 @08:26PM (#26667926)
If you're looking for feedback, you might want to put up a demo template or whatever other bit of the workflow that's easy to expose (at least, temporarily) so you get comments from HN users without the friction of sign-up.
Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by VelNZ on Thursday April 01, 2021 @08:30PM (#26667951)
Yes, I can see now that would be very useful going forward and I'll get on to it soon! Thanks!
Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by frontiersummit on Thursday April 01, 2021 @08:52PM (#26668092)
You may wish to rethink the name, as you are likely infringing on PTC's trademark. PTC Creo (Formerly known as Pro/Engineer) is high-end CAD software, competing against Catia and NX.
Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by forgotpwd16 on Friday April 02, 2021 @09:14AM (#26671145)
Probably it isn't because there's PTC Creo, CREO Solutions, Creo Technologies, and Creo (from Creolabs), an app development platform.

Edit: Creo alone is indeed a restricted trademark[0].

[0]: https://www.ptc.com/en/documents/policies/copyright-and-trad...

Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by VelNZ on Thursday April 01, 2021 @09:01PM (#26668146)
When I searched online for the name there were essentially zero results for it so I'm surprised it would infringe anything. I'm not sure how trademark law works so I'll look into this though, thanks!
Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by frontiersummit on Thursday April 01, 2021 @09:13PM (#26668198)
Google and Bing searches for "creo" give the PTC product as their first result. IANAL, but PTC could make the case that you are diluting their brand name by using it for your software, or worse, trying the phish their customers.
Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by VelNZ on Thursday April 01, 2021 @09:24PM (#26668271)
Is using part of someone else's name a violation of trademark laws? I'm genuinely curious!

I chose Creo because it means "to create" in Latin (I'm a sucker for Latin names), with docs obviously being short for documents.

I'd argue that Creo is just a generic word, it's not like the name is Leicadocs where that word is very firmly tied to a single company.

Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by anonAndOn on Thursday April 01, 2021 @10:02PM (#26668415)
Potentially. If you stay away from mentioning or advertising anything related to their line of work (CAD software?) they'll have less of a claim of infringement. Also, trademark the name in NZ, if you haven't already. IANAL, YMMV, etc...
Re:Show HN: I built Creodocs, a document creation platform b... by jessaustin on Thursday April 01, 2021 @09:14PM (#26668214)
Are you a trademark attorney? Do these systems have any similarity beyond "create stuff on computers"?

IANAL.