Even if all of these were true (I would describe most of them as a mischaracterization at best), do you honestly think that outweighs everything that I described? The worst thing that people can say about unions is they are bureaucratic and inconvenient. The worst things people can say about, say, working conditions in many non-unionized American workplaces are far, far worse. People dying, unfairly losing their job (and healthcare, and home), working incredibly long hours, unable to see their kid, unable to get adequate sleep, etc etc etc. I happen to think there are values other than "workers producing profit for their employers as efficiently as possible at the expense of anything else"

> The worst thing that people can say about unions is they are bureaucratic and inconvenient.

I disagree. Unions can lead to the death of entire industries - I have seen it with my own eyes. Inefficiencies created by unions lead to jobs going to places where such unions do not exist. Personally, I do believe the workers need to be protected, but if you protect workers then you also need to protect industries, and this opens a gigantic can of worms as it runs counter to globalization and free trade.

“death of entire industries”

What industry?

Maybe we need to open a gigantic can of worms that “runs counter to globalization” if we’re talking about sending those jobs to countries with unethical working conditions.

> What industry?

There are many examples in the manufacturing industry, though unions aren't the only factor.

> Maybe we need to open a gigantic can of worms that “runs counter to globalization” if we’re talking about sending those jobs to countries with unethical working conditions.

I couldn't agree more, the problem is there are powerful interests that will keep trying to sweep this issue under the rug.

> There are many examples in the manufacturing industry, though unions aren't the only factor.

Ok. So what industry / example specifically?

Taxis in a lot of places are akin to a union and are slowly dying with semi-legal alternatives like uber

Unions don't kill industries because in many cases union and non-union companies serve an industry at the same time.

Free trade moves industries elsewhere.

But actually killing an industry: technology, war, social changes, demand and laws that outlaw things.

Free trade is often used to move work to countries without unions.

Not advocating either position here, just pointing this out.

Yes, so unions tend to kill countries where they're too strong. They tend to promote short-sighted action that save/retain existing jobs. This makes it harder for the economy to change when it is needed which in the long run leads to failed businesses, an uncompetitive work force and unemployment. Maybe unions is like democracy in that they totally suck, but the alternatives are worse. However, unions should definitely have their power checked.

I'd say that, yes, work laws are better in France than in the US, it's rather obvious, but I can't say that the unions in France are a net good.

Also something I forgot to yesterday: unions that prevents downsizing or restructuring efforts to tackle industry changes, ending by killing the companies in question. Or, when a falling factory is about to be bought, imposing such constraints that all deal fall trough.

There's also 'bossnapping': https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-bossnapping-idUSBR...

I'm not sure I'd characterize this as anything reasonable. At what point does this warrant self defense by the people stuck?

Great way to talk about your fellow colleagues as dead wood. I would love working with you.

Working together isn’t fun when we’re all out of a job because the factory moved to another country

Don't blame your co-workers. Blame those that made the decision to move the factory (board of directors)

I assume they're not just talking about all of their colleagues, but specifically the ones that don't pull their own weight.

If you don't pull your own weight, then I would love working with you.