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Re:Early-Retirement Update by GordonS on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:20PM (#26545458)
> Not just FIRE people, but 99% of all retirees at any age end up doing nothing of note with their time.

If you spend some years just chilling and and are actually happy, then sure, why not. But there are so many retired people who do nothing, and are not happy.

For example, my mother, my mother and father in law, my other father in law, my grandmother - all retired, and all do absolutely nothing but watch TV and moan about other people all day. And they are all very obviously not happy, yet suggestions for things to do or get involved in always fall in deaf ears - they'd apparently rather sit and do nothing until they die.

I really, really don't get it.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by DubiousPusher on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:17PM (#26546320)
It makes perfect sense. It's very popular now to see everything as genetic. That is all our focus. We neglect how decades of being in the same environment with the same incentives wires the brain a certain way.

When you spend all that time disciplining yourself to work (against your own will) and having little time to develop your own interests, you become hard wired to do what is necessary.

When that necessity ceases to exist you no longer have the machinery to move yourself. A career and kids and church and a house and big yard to maintain can leave nothing left of you. It can erase your very identity as your brain is rewritten to subdue the self and pursue work, chores and favors over all else.

That's just my hypothesis anyway.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by dnissley on Monday March 22, 2021 @05:19PM (#26547273)
I think this is an unappreciated explanation, and is the biggest reason why I want to work towards some level of financial independence. I have no real desire to retire early, so I could take or leave that part. But being able to make decisions about how I spend my time without having to worry about my next paycheck seems like the obvious path towards long-term happiness. If a working environment becomes toxic I have the option to leave. If I feel like hiking the Appalachian trail I can go do it before I'm old and frail. If I'm tired of the field I'm working in I can take time off to study and do something else. If a loved one needs assistance I can go to their side.

Being compulsively tied to income generating work, and then all of a sudden being cut off from that seems like a surefire path towards unhappiness, since someone who has done that their whole life likely hasn't explored the mental space of what else they could be doing with their life.

On the other hand, being totally free from any restraints seems like it could be an almost worse curse. No pressure to complete any projects, to help anybody, to do something useful for the world. That also wires your brain in a particular fashion, and could be it's own version of hell. Perhaps this is sour grapes though :)

Re:Early-Retirement Update by prower on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @06:10AM (#26553150)
Totally agree,

I'd like only to add that, what many artists (and in general people who pursue their artistic passions) had, compared to the agerage workin-joe, is TIME.

The only way to understand your passions is by having time to observe your world, to reflect on people's actions, to contemplate nature. If you have to work (because you're the bread-winner and have 2 children already and an house to pay), your only glimmer of hope is to have already found your passion during your younger years.

Finally, your energy levels going on are never gonna be your current ones. Keep that in mind.

And I say that as a man who had a fair number of interests, never had time to really pursue them, and now has to to a work I hate and have no remaining passion at all.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by purple-again on Monday March 22, 2021 @06:27PM (#26548188)
I’ll add on to the other responses and tell you that for a lot of people getting old sucks and the thing that sucks worse than getting old is being old. Constant pain. Lipoma pressing against your spine means no matter how you sit or lay you feel uncomfortable. It hurts to take a shit, it’s hard to get all the piss out and even when you so you have to clean up the floor and toilet because it dribbled everywhere. You can’t remember the last time you jerked off and don’t care to try because it started hurting every time you ejaculate more than a decade ago. You can’t stand for more than an hour before your back is on fire forcing you back down to your sitting position which is “only” uncomfortable.

If you are reading this do yourself a favor and take your body’s health seriously right now before it’s too late. Exercise every day, get that 30 pounds of fat you jokingly call your dad bod off before it’s too late, go to the doctor and fucking do what they say instead of nodding and convincing yourself you know better and don’t really need to do that. Oh and brush and floss your damn teeth. The above story doesn’t have to be your story but if you sit at your computer all day everyday and don’t take care of yourself it very much can become your story.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by eagsalazar2 on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @01:00PM (#26569924)
Shudder...
Re:Early-Retirement Update by adkadskhj on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:30PM (#26545589)
I think it depends on who you are. I can't fathom not doing something. I want to retire, asap, though not FIRE-levels, but i know what i want to do. I want to do exactly what i do in my current off hours, which looks a lot like work. Because it is work. I want to work, when i retire. I just want to work on whatever i want to work on.

Which is the rub. Passionate people will be busy, all the time. Without it.. well, i can't even envision how to live.

I think parents need to help their children find hobbies. Find passions. Develop passions. You don't _have_ to be excellent at piano or whatever. I don't care what it is, be it games, wood working, farming, etc - but i feel like it is essential to the human experience.

But.. i've got an isolated view. So.. YMMV.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by paisawalla on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:01PM (#26546071)
This isn't an isolated view, but in my view, it does miss a lot.

Most people have an idea of what they would ideally do if given unlimited amounts of time. The reality is, in my experience, that most people cannot put the same level of work, focus, and dedication into their own projects that they can into the projects an employer pays them to work on.

For whatever reason, most people need the structure, constraint, judgment, or whatever that an external authority imposes on them. Having the skill and motivation is not enough to bring your highest work to your own purposes. There is a second discipline that involves self-accountability, which runs orthogonal to capacity for the work.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by nightski on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:24PM (#26546418)
Who is advocating that most people should FIRE? It's an individual choice and we shouldn't be telling someone they can't do it because, well, "averages".
Re:Early-Retirement Update by paisawalla on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:39PM (#26546638)
Nobody is saying "you can't do it." But "averages" is 100% a valid reason to consider why you shouldn't do something, particularly something unknown to most humans.
Re:Early-Retirement Update by npsimons on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:35PM (#26546574)
> I just want to work on whatever i want to work on.

This is exactly why I'm pursuing leanFIRE. Even if I hit the jackpot, I would still be toodling on personal software projects for the rest of my life. Not saying I'm any Michelangelo, but I would have to be trained not to write software. I'm just aiming to set my own priorities instead of working on things I'm not passionate about because I simply need the money.

I keep wondering if I shouldn't quit the day job and start a software shop, but even that sounds an awful lot like work where you trade one relentless taskmaster for another. I sure as shit don't want to have to worry about market share, I just want to make cool (to me) software.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by pdimitar on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:47PM (#26545847)
One possible explanation:

Their dream was to sit around, do nothing, and judge other people. And they have achieved it.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by mfer on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:58PM (#26546934)
I used to work for a company that had a newsletter. In the newsletter they listed deaths. There was a common theme that people would generally either die shortly after retiring or a long time after. Talking with some of the folks near retirement I learned that people who didn't find things to do generally died shortly after retirement.

Basically, we live for work and when many people retire they loose the thing to live for and die. It's sad.

Long ago I learned to not live to work. I work but I have so much more to life... retirement is just a point in time where I don't need to earn income to live any longer and I can have more choice in what I do.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by jjeaff on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @10:02AM (#26555078)
I have often heard this. And even witnessed it some. But i wonder if the phenomenon is actually due to the fact that people who are in good health and well when they retire are more likely to stay active and those who are not in good health or don't feel well, tend to not stay very busy after they no longer are required to.
Re:Early-Retirement Update by DougN7 on Wednesday March 24, 2021 @07:52AM (#26565967)
My father noticed the same thing and feared it would happen to him, so he kept working part time after retirement. When he finally retired completely, he died within a few years at a healthy (other than sudden cancer) age of 74. I’ve suspected there is something about the pressure of work that “holds” us together, though I can’t put my finger on it.
Re:Early-Retirement Update by _carbyau_ on Monday March 22, 2021 @07:09PM (#26548683)
I think it is depression. And once you are depressed, it is hard to find activation energy.

Plenty of depressed people will tell you about friends being frustrated at them "not snapping out of it".

Re:Early-Retirement Update by yibg on Monday March 22, 2021 @03:46PM (#26545825)
In one of Dan Gilbert’s talks he cited some research around activities and how they correlate with happiness. Unsurprisingly people like sex and socializing. But “doing nothing” turned out to be about as enjoyable as work at the bottom.
Re:Early-Retirement Update by alexashka on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:02PM (#26546090)
I get it.

It's all explained by one simple fact: the average IQ is 100. In today's society, how many activities are there for 100 IQ people to engage in?

Are there animals to take care of? Is there land? Is there community to partake in? Are there things that need to be done by 100 IQ people?

When you build society optimizing for young people to work 8 hour days or giant factories and supply chains doing everything else, what is there for somebody at 65 to do but watch tv and wait until they die?

Young people barely even have children anymore and when they do, chances are their parents are still working, so by the time they retire, the children are 5-10 years old and playing on their own.

It's easy to blame the individuals for not joining a knitting club or whatever, but people are not built to do pointless activities, they are built to do activities that have purpose and those are not available in modern society unless you have high IQ or a talent in a specific domain.

Also one last point: moaning about other people is what people have always done, especially when you're older and you're almost certainly experiencing chronic pain of some sort. Younger people moan just as much, they just have youth and belief that things will be looking up on their side - old people have neither.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by eloff on Monday March 22, 2021 @06:16PM (#26548069)
Apart from the fact that average IW has been rising dramatically, I guess your not a Forest Gump fan.

I think 100 IQ people are more capable than you realize - but it comes down to their attitude.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by kyteland on Monday March 22, 2021 @07:04PM (#26548640)
Nitpick: Average IQ cannot increase by definition. The median IQ value is defined to be 100 IQ points and one standard deviation in either direction is defined to be 15 IQ points. It's normally distributed so median==average as well. People overall can become more intelligent and the average IQ value will still be 100.
Re:Early-Retirement Update by gamegoblin on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:44PM (#26549514)
I believe the comment you are replying to is referring to the Flynn effect [1] which shows a ~3 point rise in IQ per decade in absolute terms. That is, someone who is 100 IQ in 1950 would only be 97 IQ measured by 1960 standards.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

Re:Early-Retirement Update by eloff on Monday March 22, 2021 @11:11PM (#26550587)
Yes, the score is always normalized like that, but the Flynn effect shows people getting smarter over time.

So intelligence is increasing while IQ stays the same, to be pedantic.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by xiphias2 on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @01:33AM (#26551460)
Aging is as big problem or probably even bigger, than having a job. I'm sure your grandmother wouldn't just watch TV if she looked and felt like a 20 year old girl. She would probably go party, hang out, get drunk, travel and socialize all the time.

Chronic illnesses at any age suck as much as having aging as a chronic illness.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by 1_player on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @06:07AM (#26553121)
> go party, hang out, get drunk, travel and socialize all the time

This is the 20-something version of being idle. Minus the travel, which isn't a given.

Being 20 doesn't mean you want to do something productive or meaningful with your life. There's plenty 20 yo that party, socialise, get drunk and never amount to anything. The reason it's just a phase is that it's not all trust fund kids and most need money (a job) to live.

Re:Early-Retirement Update by xiphias2 on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @11:32AM (#26556197)
If a baby would come out it, that is just as productive as a job (though more and more people do abortion nowdays).

I don't see why working/producing is anymore meaningful than partying / socializing. I think people can find meaning in their life in different ways.