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Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by wmf on Sunday March 21, 2021 @09:22PM (#26535809)
For those who do not know RMS personally: "I worked for RMS longer than any other programmer. ... This was an own-goal for RMS. He has had plenty of opportunities to learn how to stfu when that’s necessary. ... I can confirm the unfortunate reality that RMS’s behavior was a concern [in the 1990s], and that [Marvin Minsky's] protection was itself part of the problem. He was never held to account; he was himself coddled in his own lower-grade misbehavior and mistreatment of women. He made the place uncomfortable for a lot of people, and especially women. ... RMS’s mere presence on the scene in this way has served to make it harder to deal with other cases of bad leaders’ bad behavior. It is time for the free software community to leave adolescence and move to adulthood, and this requires leaving childish tantrums, abusive language, and toxic environments behind." — Thomas Bushnell https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa...
Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by r3856283 on Sunday March 21, 2021 @09:27PM (#26535842)
He didn't work with or for RMS longer than any other programmer, there are many who have longer. Gerald J. Sussman is a programmer and hired him at MIT and is still on the board of FSF and still working with him, that is over 40 years. And RMS has grown over the years. This is from over 20 years ago.
Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by joshuamorton on Sunday March 21, 2021 @09:38PM (#26535921)
"for" and "with" are different words.
Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by r3856283 on Sunday March 21, 2021 @09:44PM (#26535956)
Sorry. Edited.
Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by gruez on Sunday March 21, 2021 @10:11PM (#26536124)
>and that [Marvin Minsky's] protection was itself part of the problem

So if your friend was accused of heinous crime, the right thing to do is to distance yourself as far as possible?

Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by jrochkind1 on Sunday March 21, 2021 @10:30PM (#26536241)
So I'm not sure there are any "heinous crimes" here, so what we're talking about is hypothetical, not this situation.

If you believe your friend has committed a heinous crime (assuming this isn't just a quote "crime" but actually involves heinous harm to others), the right thing to do is support your friend as a human being and support and encourage them to take accountability for the harm they've done and try to repair it, and either way support what is necessary for them to be taken out of a position where they can continue to do harm, while trying to make sure your friend is okay too (as far as still having a roof over their head and food to eat and emotional support and dignity etc).

I know this isn't the way our society works right now. It is the right thing to do.

Come to think of it, it's the right thing to do even if the harm is less heinous.

Part of the problem is that our society has taught us that the only choices are a) total abandonment of someone, throw them away completely or b) that "supporting" them means helping them deny the harm they've caused avoid any consequences and continue to do harm.

Neither one will work to reduce the amount of harm done or build a culture where we can be human.

Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by IfOnlyYouKnew on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:19AM (#26537386)
If they actually did what they are accused of then, yes, you should probably rethink that friendship. There’s some value in loyalty, but I don’t see a reason why that should include culpable behavior.
Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by ertian on Monday March 22, 2021 @10:03AM (#26540893)
Right...but in this specific case, Stallman was loyal because he didn't think his (at that point deceased) friend did it, and in the end he was right. So this seems like a good example of why it's appropriate to withhold judgement until the facts are in.

Also worth noting: Minsky was never actually accused of anything. His name came up in a case and the press & twitter hordes went on a rampage. That's what Stallman was reacting to. It really bothers me that the press outlets that went with "Famed AI Researcher Raped Children" aren't even being discussed, but the guy who said "Did he really, though? I think we should wait for more info" was (and still is) being dragged over the coals for it, even after he was vindicated.

Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by schwartzworld on Tuesday March 23, 2021 @05:58AM (#26553054)
The right thing to do is keep controversial opinions to yourself at work, especially when you're in a position of authority or public facing work.
Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by tptacek on Sunday March 21, 2021 @10:26PM (#26536217)
You can stand by a friend without minimizing the harm they cause.
Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by hutzlibu on Monday March 22, 2021 @07:59AM (#26539604)
You mean marginalising?

Because minimizing harm is nothing bad as far as I am concerned.

Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by etiam on Monday March 22, 2021 @07:58AM (#26539596)
When the actual harm was zero? And perhaps more importantly when the accusations go well beyond anything evidence warrants?
Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by hutzlibu on Monday March 22, 2021 @08:02AM (#26539634)
Yep. That thinking is part of the problem.

Because you did not feel bothered by him you assume no one has a right to it?

And justified or not, there was real harm done to the reputation of FSF.

Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by pfortuny on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:14AM (#26538033)
No but justice comes before kindness.
Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by ulucs on Monday March 22, 2021 @04:44AM (#26538228)
Justice without kindness is just violence while somehow getting to feel good about it
Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by pfortuny on Monday March 22, 2021 @06:38AM (#26538960)
Notice that I did not say "without".

Your statement (think about it) is a non-sequitur: I did not reject kindness, I just set an order. Think about mafias.

And I did not advocate violence, at all.

Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by malwarebytess on Monday March 22, 2021 @05:55AM (#26538688)
That sounds like a rant from someone just don't doesn't like RMS rather than any substantive argument against him.
[dead]
Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by tadfisher on Sunday March 21, 2021 @10:50PM (#26536352)
This may be referring to the widespread rumor/account of RMS propositioning women for sex in his office at MIT, where he kept a mattress. I have no idea if this is true.
Re:Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF by ogurechny on Monday March 22, 2021 @02:33AM (#26537471)
Just imagine being so clueless that you don't understand someone having a mattress in his office. “What, do you even sleep next to a computer? EWW, NERD!” And these are the people who are the loudest about their intent to steer the whole industry “the right way”. To be honest, the motto that you don't need the skill to make decisions about the work requiring that skill, or that you don't need understand people doing it (the misleadingly formulated “anti-meritocracy” ideology) could only be taken without laughing out of politeness.

And, as far as I know, the lack of mattress in the room never stopped any stereotypical harassing boss, so what's the point here exactly?