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Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by arcticbull on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:37PM (#26518846)
While I agree in theory that would be nice, in practice what’s to stop someone from borrowing 100k and declaring bankruptcy on graduation day? Why would anyone lend to someone with this kind of adverse selection risk?

College tuition just needs to be paid for by the state without the lending facilities, IMO. As evidenced here the state just gets left with the bag anyways.

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by ska on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:41PM (#26518884)
> in practice what’s to stop someone from borrowing ...

the same things as any other debt that is dischargeable?

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by arcticbull on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:06PM (#26519074)
The difference is a college student has a negative net worth on graduation much of the time, an average credit score of 630, with no assets, no collateral, and absolutely nothing to lose from declaring bankruptcy. If you have $100K in liberal arts debt that's worth way more to discharge than 7 more years as an authorized user on your parents credit card.

On the other hand most other lending is collateralized, or even where not collateralized, the lender has a reasonable expectation of repayment or positive net worth.

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by ska on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:34PM (#26519234)
Sure that's a reason that the risk profile is different, but it's not fundamental. The current system is deeply flawed because of the guarantee.

Maybe the answer is you can't discharge it through bankruptcy for a certain number of years (e.g. 10?). But also, it shouldn't be 6 figures.

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by HideousKojima on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:42PM (#26518893)
The problem is with other loans there's collateral the lender can sieze like a house or a car.
Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by ska on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:46PM (#26518932)
Not necessarily (e.g. credit cards), but that is one way to manage risk.

Certainly removing this protection would likely reduce the number and/or size of loans that are approved, and other risk reduction methods applied.

As it is , tuitions are being driven more by ability to pay than by costs, and ability to pay is being driven by this loan status. The system has terrible incentives for lenders and institutions.

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by Judgmentality on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:46PM (#26518941)
Why can't the university take back the degree? They can't take back the knowledge, but assuming the certificate itself is actually worth anything they could always revoke the diploma. And employers are already oddly adept at checking boxes, "actually has a degree" is just another checkbox to them. Anyone that says they have a degree and doesn't is untrustworthy and why would you hire that person?

If someone has a job they have no need to do so. If someone doesn't, then assuming that person went to school with the intention of getting a job afterwards, then it seems the school failed (either in educating the student or choosing to accept a student who is unlikely to accept a job).

It seems utterly bizarre to me anyone besides the university should be on the hook for this. If they're accepting the money, they should also be accepting the risk. It feels like nobody is willing to be held accountable for anything anymore and push the risk off onto those who are most vulnerable. This is a cancer in modern capitalism.

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by orangecat on Saturday March 20, 2021 @03:20AM (#26521404)
Why can't the university take back the degree?

Employers don't care that your "has_degree" field is set to true in the college's database. They care that you demonstrated a sufficient level of IQ+conscientiousness by showing up and passing tests for several years, and in some cases they may care that you acquired relevant knowledge. Universities can't revoke either of those things because they're historical facts.

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by likpok on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:08PM (#26519086)
There are only some places where that actually works. For nursing, teaching and other basically-vocational degrees this works okay: you need the paper to get the degree.

But a lot of degrees aren't like that, and a lot of places don't care which degree you have once you've had a similar job. Why would all employers buy into this? They can get someone with equivalent knowledge a little cheaper. It's a pain, but the graduate can certainly still launder their lack of degree into a job (or even just lie about it! people do that all the time, and are only sometimes caught).

The idea you're suggesting sounds something like an ISA: no cost upfront, X% of your income when you get the job. Those have other problems: universities will be incentivized to get the most employable students. They're also more expensive (since the downside risk is all on the university).

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by dragonwriter on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:06PM (#26519076)
> The problem is with other loans there’s collateral the lender can sieze like a house or a car.

No, other unsecured loans that are neither federally-backed nor endowed with harsher bankruptcy discharge terms exist.

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by HideousKojima on Saturday March 20, 2021 @04:15PM (#26525785)
Yes, usually with much higher interest rates and much lower borrow limits, like credit cards.
Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by epicureanideal on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:42PM (#26518901)
> College tuition just needs to be paid for by the state without the lending facilities, IMO.

No way. That just means the taxpayer gets defrauded rather than the student, and the "school" still gets their money. It encourages the further growth of fraud.

The government should not guarantee loans for universities and programs of study that do not have a track record of financial benefit for the students.

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by ShroudedNight on Saturday March 20, 2021 @02:06AM (#26521134)
> That just means the taxpayer gets defrauded rather than the student

The collective of taxpayers has a far larger collection of sticks than individual students.

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by arcticbull on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:04PM (#26519063)
> No way. That just means the taxpayer gets defrauded rather than the student, and the "school" still gets their money. It encourages the further growth of fraud.

That's literally what just happened now. The department of education is eating the loans. I may have misunderstood but is that not what the article is about?

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by mewse on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:48PM (#26518961)
Can you be more specific about what “fraud” you’re saying the taxpayer is falling victim to in this scenario?
Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by hntrader on Saturday March 20, 2021 @05:21AM (#26521803)
What about making it dischargeable starting 3-8 years after their last day/graduation?

Then lenders have an incentive to stop supporting useless $150k degrees, and borrowers can't declare bankruptcy immediately after graduation as an intentional tactic to dodge the debt.

Seems to address all major problems.

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by pg_bot on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:43PM (#26518904)
There are long term consequences for declaring bankruptcy that would dissuade sane people from flippantly filing. You also have to convince a judge that you are actually bankrupt.
Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by likpok on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:54PM (#26518998)
The long term consequences end in 7 years, when the bankruptcy falls off your credit report.

That means that by 30 you'd be free and clear. Most people don't need much credit before then anyway: the median age of first time homebuyers is 33. You'd pay a lot more for a car loan or a credit card, but you don't really need either of those things either.

Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by sokoloff on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:46PM (#26518934)
Most new college grads who took loans are.
Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by hobs on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:43PM (#26518902)
The same thing that's stopping everyone from borrowing a bunch of money to go on vacations and then declaring bankruptcy?
Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by sokoloff on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:47PM (#26518945)
That no one will lend them $100K+ to live for four years without working and without qualifying by credit scoring and income metrics?
Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by lr4444lr on Friday March 19, 2021 @07:22PM (#26519177)
You mean 15% and higher interest rates typical of credit cards?
Re:Defrauded students to receive loan forgiveness by testesttest on Friday March 19, 2021 @06:44PM (#26518918)
> College tuition just needs to be paid for by the state

Ok, but not masters degree right? Were the last 2 years of high school actually useful to you? Free college will just make it defacto required and waste people's time.