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Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by jorvi on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @07:51AM (#26489767)
It still blows my mind that Mastodon was explicitly made to escape the 'dictator companies' of closed social networks but that many of the apps made for Mastodon contain blacklists. I don't agree with the content of said blacklisted Mastodon instances and I agree that developers can do whatever they want with their app, but blacklists seem painfully obviously against the spirit of what Mastodon is supposed to represent.
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by whywhywhywhy on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:07AM (#26489915)
Gotta keep in mind the concept of "Federation" isn't the same as "Anti-censorship" or "Free Speech".

It's less escaping the censored and restricted megacorp service to freedom or free speech anarchy and more you're able to build your own service that fulfills your own needs and own preferred blend of moderation vs free speech and that service can interact with others own instances with their own rules.

Same goes for the clients.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by syshum on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:18AM (#26490018)
The problem with that argument is that the developers of the application are making the choices not the people that are "building their own service"

This goes to the core of the debate, I am in favor of giving users the ability to block anyone they want, even the ability to subscribe to and distribute block lists

However it is step to far to hardcode or build in unchangeable block lists into the very foundation of the service.

Developers need to empower users to make their own choices, not treat users like they were children

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by jakelazaroff on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:58AM (#26490449)
When I build something, I alone get to decide what my labor enables and what it does not. If you disagree with my choices, you’re free to use a tool built by someone whose values better align with yours.
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by arsome on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @10:23AM (#26491640)
Just don't call it free software.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

"The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0)."

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by robrtsql on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @10:36AM (#26491833)
Which Mastodon client doesn't respect this freedom? Tusky is GPL v3 (https://github.com/tuskyapp/Tusky/blob/develop/LICENSE.txt). If you disagree with Tusky's choice to prevent accessing gab, you're free to fork it.
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by prvc on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @10:35AM (#26491816)
Interesting point. Would like to hear what someone like RMS would say about this case.
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by josephcsible on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @12:56PM (#26493803)
He doesn't care what restrictions are in a program's source code, as long as you're both legally allowed and technically able to create and use a modified version of the program without them.
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by almaember on Monday March 22, 2021 @06:16PM (#26548073)
But I think he did say that such restrictions are bad and people should remove it
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by josephcsible on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @12:57PM (#26493814)
It's still free software. It only wouldn't be if the license said you weren't allowed to remove the restrictions, or if it didn't come with the source code needed for you to do so.
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by josephcsible on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @10:03AM (#26491371)
Some authors of Fediverse clients banned certain servers not because they wanted to, but because they were told their client would be banned from app stores if they didn't.
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by mannerheim on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @11:28AM (#26492563)
Guess Tusky is free to use an app store whose values align with theirs.
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by syshum on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @09:15AM (#26490696)
That is fine, just do not market it as a "Free Speech" service / tool / platform like the fediverse try's to do.

The entire marketing of the fediverse software is freedom from censorship.

if you want to build "Authoritarianverse" and place yourself as emperor for life, then you are free do to do just be open with your marketing so people know to avoid your software

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by jakelazaroff on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @09:28AM (#26490908)
I don’t actually think that’s accurate. I don’t see the term “free speech” or any obvious variation on https://tusky.app or even on https://joinmastodon.org.

As I understand it, their main goal is escaping corporate control, and any freedom from censorship they provide is incidental.

See too Mastodon’s “server covenant”, which seeks to quarantine instances that allow hateful content: https://joinmastodon.org/covenant

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by syshum on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @11:57AM (#26492948)
Right on the home page of mastodon "Follow friends and discover new ones among more than 4.4M people. Publish anything you want:"

Clearly that is a false statement if they are imposing their view of what "correct" speech is.

They both also license their code under GPL, even though they violate Freedom 0 of the core freedom model the GPL is designed to protect

The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).

>> escaping corporate control

Which is doubly ironic since they have adopted the same exact policies that many are fleeing Big Tech to avoid. The Silicon Valley Authoritarian left Speech codes

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by jakelazaroff on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @01:07PM (#26493984)
Why did you omit the second half of that sentence? They’re clearly referring to the format, not the content:

> Publish anything you want: links, pictures, text, video.

You’re misinterpreting the meaning of freedom 0. Tusky and Mastodon comply with both the letter and the spirit:

> The freedom to run the program as you wish means that you are not forbidden or stopped from making it run. This has nothing to do with what functionality the program has, whether it is technically capable of functioning in any given environment, or whether it is useful for any particular computing activity.

> For example, if the code arbitrarily rejects certain meaningful inputs—or even fails unconditionally—that may make the program less useful, perhaps even totally useless, but it does not deny users the freedom to run the program, so it does not conflict with freedom 0. If the program is free, the users can overcome the loss of usefulness, because freedoms 1 and 3 permit users and communities to make and distribute modified versions without the arbitrary nuisance code.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by almaember on Monday March 22, 2021 @06:19PM (#26548098)
You don't seem to see the difference between the letter and the spirit.

Sure, Tusky complies with the letter of the definition; that doesn't make it moral

This is what Stallman said:

> If a free program has a malicious feature, other developers in the community will take it out, and you can use the corrected version. You can also run free application programs and tools on nonfree operating systems; this falls short of fully giving you freedom, but many users do it.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by jakelazaroff on Monday March 22, 2021 @09:36PM (#26549932)
Tusky complies with the spirit of the definition. More accurately, its list of blocked servers is entirely unrelated to whether or not it's free software. Again, the FSF explicitly says of freedom 0:

> This has nothing to do with what functionality the program has, whether it is technically capable of functioning in any given environment, or whether it is useful for any particular computing activity.

What part of your quote does Tusky violate? It's GPL3. Even if you consider that block list a malicious feature (I don't), you are allowed to take it out and distribute a "corrected" version.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by syshum on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @02:59PM (#26495426)
It is sad that as a culture we are loosing the value of freedom and bend over backwards to justify why it is ok for people to limit other peoples freedom

When i first got into the IT world many decades ago it was largely libertarian, free culture was rampant and attempts to lock down peoples speech, and freedom was viewed very badly

Today people like you find anything and everything to not only justify your Authoritarianism and desire for control over others, you do so by attempting to gas light people in to thinking you are actually supporting freedom

Sorry I was there, I lived through the rise of the internet, I lived through the crypto wars, I saw the raise of Free Software, and Open source, I saw it all first hand... I know the dangers if the society you desire, but it seems history will need to repeat itself before people will learn

This trend in some circles to limit speech and thought will not turn out good for anyone, never in history has speech codes and thought police been a good thing for society, and I see no reason to believe that the so called "progressives" that are leading this new round of authoritarian policies will turn out any different.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by jsmith99 on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:22AM (#26490053)
Free speech! Free software! But only for people with some programming skills, it seems. (Or at least enough to fork the app on GitHub)
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by bronson on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @10:10AM (#26491458)
Free furniture! But only for people with woodworking skills it seems.

If you can’t convince an expert to give you what you want, yes, you will need to learn to do it yourself.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by 3np on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @07:58AM (#26489832)
On the contrary, the idea in the fediverse is that you choose a server that aligns with your needs and preferences. You can always run your own promiscuous instance if you want.

This is in contrary to the status quo, where the vertical integration makes it practically impossible to choose a differently filtered view.

Over time I'm sure we'll see curation markets for filter lists, think adblock lists but tied to some collaboration, voting, incentive mechanisms and reputation system.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by PurpleFoxy on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:14AM (#26489990)
OPs point is the app devs are trying to stop you picking your own server by blocking you from logging in to unapproved servers via the app. Instances blocking each other is perfectly understandable.

This is like if chrome started blocking websites google disapproves of.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by 3np on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:18AM (#26490015)
You're right - but my argument is equally applicable to Mastodon apps as to instances or Google's app store - you can always choose a different app!

If they start using their own proprietary protocol extensions, or closed their instance to other clients, I'd not be as dismissive.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by josephcsible on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @10:04AM (#26491390)
> you can always choose a different app

Not if the app stores have a rule that every such client has to ban the servers that the app store doesn't like.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by 3np on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @10:49AM (#26492014)
See my comment on the relevant thread here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26489901
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by shakow on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:13AM (#26489970)
The thing is that Mastodon and other libre platforms mantra is not to ensure that everyone express themselves, but that everyone can do so.

I am, personally, totally fine with that: I don't wish to have ideas I hold in contempt sneak into my feed. But the key difference with “dictator companies” is that I decide what I don't see and whom I enclose with.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by luckylion on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:22AM (#26490055)
> But the key difference with “dictator companies” is that I decide what I don't see and whom I enclose with.

But you don't. The app decides for you and blocks what you shall not see.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by shakow on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @09:14AM (#26490663)
There is a dozen apps, and most of these are opensource.

Not to count that the protocol and the federation are open.

Once again, “free speech” is not “spoon-feed you a way to reach millions of people in an eyeblink”, it's “don't prevent you from doing it”.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by luckylion on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @10:26AM (#26491677)
> There is a dozen apps, and most of these are opensource.

And some of them work in tandem, apparently.

> Not to count that the protocol and the federation are open.

HTTP is open. Would you not consider it problematic if Google blocked accessing websites because some engineer doesn't like the opinions published on those websites?

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by shakow on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @01:16PM (#26494133)
> And some of them work in tandem, apparently.

Yeah, that's called a fork. Now, if you don't like them you can switch to Yuito, Mammut, Ivory, Mastobone, Stegodon, Fedilab, or the web client of your instance, or develop your own.

> Would you not consider it problematic if Google blocked accessing websites because some engineer doesn't like the opinions published on those websites?

They're already doing it, in China for instance; or on Chrome if a website is on their safe browsing list.

And no, I don't find it problematic. Google is a private company, I don't have any say in what they do with their property as long as they follow the law.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by M2Ys4U on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:40AM (#26490218)
There is no "the app". There are many apps.

The protocol is open, so you could even write your own app, or if you lack the skills or time to do so, commission somebody else to write one and nobody can stop you.

In contrast, the siloed "dictator companies" control API/protocol access so it's almost impossible to develop alternative applications.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by yarcob on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:38AM (#26490195)
It's not a problem if there are alternatives to the app. You can just use a different app.

The problem is when there's no alternative because the platform owner blocks you.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by fwn on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:11AM (#26489944)
The idea behind federated networks is to spread power.

If power is truly spread out and people there are as heterogeneous as everywhere else it does mean that there will be instances that do not agree on the process on how to handle things. That is by design.

Long term the only one you as a Mastodon user have to agree with is the administrator of your instance. If you are on a mainstream instance where, let's say, zealots push for an ever smaller overton window and isolate the instance you should, ideally, just switch instances as soon as it starts getting in your way.

It is natural that parts of the network will drift in different directions while they iterate on their understanding on how the instance should be governed.

Truly problematic are not instances deciding to go strict but platform providers trying to pressure their vague and intransparent rules onto the network.

... also the ever present risk of software developers adding their own hierarchy to the system, but that problem is inherent to all shared protocols.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by wffurr on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @09:04AM (#26490542)
There's a joke (can't find the comic or article, darn you Google search) that says when you make a forum with "free speech" you get one civil libertarian and 99 trolls, neo nazis, child pornographers, etc.

Moderation is essential for usable communities. These block lists are a form of moderation to make Mastodon useful. Otherwise it's pushed on to the user, many of whom will just nope out back to Reddit or Facebook, or to the Mastodon server administrators, who are largely unpaid volunteer labor.

Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by rvschuilenburg on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @09:19AM (#26490767)
The person you're replying to is not referring to blocklists between mastodon instances (so for example, having mastodon.org blocking federation between them and cybre.space), but clients preventing you to login to certain instances. It's like an e-mail client that supports the POP-protocol preventing logins to pop.myemailserver.com because they don't like myemailserver.com
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by soundnote on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @09:47AM (#26491159)
The Tusky blocklists for eg. Gab and Spinster don't impact the actual communities one iota - most Mastodon servers already block them, and the instance and user level are where the filtering should take place in Mastodon's system design. Some rando using Spinster on their phone isn't going to contaminate anyone else.
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by jaster on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @09:21AM (#26490794)
Not sure if it's the one you were thinking about, but there is a similar passage in the Slate Star Codex article "Neutral vs. Conservative: The Eternal Struggle" https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/01/neutral-vs-conservativ...

    The moral of the story is: if you’re against witch-hunts, and you promise to found your own little utopian community where witch-hunts will never happen, your new society will end up consisting of approximately three principled civil libertarians and seven zillion witches. It will be a terrible place to live even if witch-hunts are genuinely wrong.
Re:Tusky has been removed from the Play Store by mansion7 on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @08:12AM (#26489960)
They must bend over and accept the blacklists, for our betters at Apple and Google have deemed some of the instances to be too naughty. They will ban the app from their stores if such access is allowed.

Instead, one must access naughty comment through other approved means, such as Chrome or Safari.