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Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by gfiorav on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:29PM (#26482445)
You'll see how the west is going to "rebrand" globalization from the "world savior" to "a dependency issue". We're going back.

Everyone thought that as new countries got richer, they would follow in the steps of western values (democracy, free markets, etc.). Yet, all we really achieved is to fund the CCP. And now they're not letting investors get their money out and they're putting military bases where they swore they would never. Great.

Of course, the world is more "equal" in general, but not in the concrete edge cases. For already developed countries, it's a nightmare that destroyed the industry and the middle class. For developing countries, it's a nightmare where a powerful few (CCP) have more resources than ever to suppress their people and relinquish power.

The only way forward is back. Let's keep the diversity and the share of information and progress. Let's reverse the economic dependency hell we've cornered ourselves into.

P.D: I have nothing but sympathy for the Chinese people. I admire their resolve and creativity. I hate the CCP and how people all over the world have come to relativize even our core values as a society (democracy, freedom of speech, etc). We're really close to a middle-ages screw up if we don't remember what we stand for.

Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by licebmi__at__ on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @07:50PM (#26484777)
>Everyone thought that as new countries got richer, they would follow in the steps of western values (democracy, free markets, etc.).

Maybe the markets enthusiasts were sold that idea, but even if I was too young to be into politics, I do remember that some circles (leftist) were pretty skeptical of the globalization push, which was seen as imperialism and a way for the elites to enrich themselves. After all these years, not only the pro-market camp's promises didn't came true, but maybe the chinese were also keen to participate trying not to come too affected by the imperialism.

Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by api on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:45PM (#26482706)
> Everyone thought that as new countries got richer, they would follow in the steps of western values (democracy, free markets, etc.).

This is the key idea that has failed: the idea that prosperity equals or leads to social liberalism and human rights, or that the two are interdependent.

This idea appears to be wrong, having been disproven by China.

Totalitarianism and prosperity can co-exist just fine. Totalitarianism and capitalism can even co-exist to a degree, with the totalitarian tendency to kneecap the extremely wealthy being outweighed by the totalitarian ability to forcibly suppress workers' rights movements and pushes for higher wages. Totalitarians can also backstop the economy, stepping in in the event of a crash and forcing number to go up by edict. That benefits the investor class at the expense of the working class by effectively writing down wages and inflating assets.

This means utilitarian arguments for freedom and human rights fail. That's a big deal and undermines at least a half century of libertarian and neoliberal talking points. It means human rights must be argued for on purely spiritual, moral/ethical, or hedonic grounds, not utilitarian grounds.

I think the collapse of this key idea is as much a driver of the global push-back against globalism as working class economic concerns and cultural xenophobia, if not more. Human beings are philosophical beings and coherent narratives and ideas matter to us. When China showed that you could have totalitarianism and prosperity, the bottom fell out of the argument for the whole project.

Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by gfiorav on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:35PM (#26483367)
Yes, pretty much agree. I'll say that in the end people want their freedom.

I didn't believe this until the lockdown. Being told what to do is something that makes you instantly appreciate freedom.

There will always be revolt, given enough time. CCP have outdone themselves in that department though. They've learnt from USSR and Cuba.

In USSR/Cuba people know. They talk to outsiders and realize the don't live like they're better. China has learnt and told their citizens that they're bullied everywhere so the CCP was made to protect them. Genius really.

Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by api on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:37PM (#26483384)
The CCP is also building a surveillance state that may allow them to preemptively shut down any dissent before it gains any traction and do so in real time. Unlike most Western states there isn't even a pretense of legal or constitutional restraint. They can surveil with total impunity and more importantly use that data with total impunity. Western governments are at least constrained on the second part if not the first.

That is fucking scary. We have invented a set of technologies that could be used to create an un-overthrowable dictatorship and permanently enslave the human race... to get people to click ads.

Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by gfiorav on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @07:45PM (#26484721)
CCP are a bunch of ignorant mediocres. Don’t give them more merit than they deserve
Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by orestarod on Friday March 19, 2021 @09:17PM (#26519893)
Why do you think that? Do you think those at the top who set the national strategy are mediocre? China's present position could not have been achieved by mediocre members.
Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by gfiorav on Sunday March 21, 2021 @12:28AM (#26528113)
It has been achieved thanks to the heaps of cash that the entire world has thrown at China. Part of what made it work was some good ideas "some" people at the very top had, but they've reverted those decisions and the effects are starting to show (you now need contacts in the government to start new stuff, didn't use to be the case).

Of course, with time, any approach expires. The new approach is lacking. Not surprising considering the finger-picked positions.

Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by tjs8rj on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:57PM (#26483670)
Do people want their freedom? For many people even today there’s a strong desire for comfort, familiarity, duty, etc over freedom. We aren’t allowed to urinate in public, even if we are careful to avoid making a mess, a health hazard, or to flash anyone - because we’ve deemed that freedom not worth the costs to comfort in walking your streets without people peeing in public. You can’t own military grade artillery anymore, you can’t curse on the radio, you can’t work as a child, you can’t purchase cigarettes under 18, you can’t even legally drive or even prove your capable of driving safely before 16 (much less vote). There’s plenty of freedoms we forgo for some degree of security and comfort, and we wanted a different balance of freedom, security, and comfort just a few years ago, or decades ago, and we’ll likely want a different balance in 10 more years. Plenty of people in 2020 were totally fine with fines and enforced curfews in light of protests, riots, and pandemic. Freedom doesn’t seem like a true north for humans
Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by api on Thursday March 18, 2021 @09:05AM (#26502231)
That's why I said freedom and human rights.

Certain extreme expressions of subjective human freedom can harm people more broadly. Someone building an atomic bomb in their basement is a threat to my human rights, as is a company blowing unfiltered coal smoke all over my town. Enough people emitting enough fossil CO2 globally might threaten the rights (and damage the property) of a vast number of people. Enough people refusing to vaccinate might even be a threat (though this has to be evaluated carefully), since they're increasing my odds of contracting a disease.

Balancing absolute freedom with human rights and the broader experience of liberty and prosperity is as we would say an "AI hard problem." There exists no simple set of rules that when followed will always yield a positive result. It requires a continuous input of fully engaged intelligence and a continuous deliberative political process.

What we can say is that certain things do not do this. One-party totalitarian surveillance states, grievance-based populism, fascism, or Russia-style mafia-theocracy do not do this.

Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by gfiorav on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @07:45PM (#26484733)
It’s a layered problem:

If the economy is good, then yes.

If the circumstances are daring enough, then yes.

Otherwise no

Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by garfieldnate on Wednesday March 17, 2021 @12:36PM (#26493512)
I don't think it's correct to say that the idea of prosperity and liberalism being linked has been disproven. China is very concerned generally with appearing prosperous, but they're generally not very forthcoming about the wellbeing of their citizens. If you're a Uighur right now, for example, things might not seem so rosy to you.
Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by orestarod on Friday March 19, 2021 @09:19PM (#26519900)
Uighurs are not in a rosy situation because they have not chosen submission to the rulers and their directives. If they had, do you think they would have it hard?
Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by tartoran on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @04:49PM (#26482761)
It’s a bit late for that. Not sure if it is too late though. Without changing a few essential philosophies such as consumerism the whole world is dependent on China’s manufacture strength. Without scooping heavily into the resouces of the top 1% who benefited most from globalization this whole thing is also impossible to achieve. Without taxing the corporations a higher rate the middleclass won’t be able to recover. I don’t see anything being done about this.
Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by gfiorav on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:31PM (#26483308)
Oh, it's super late! In the short term, China will definitely be the largest economy (it's just about demographics + GDP).

The only thing that could challenge that is:

1) World war (please no)

2) China is chopped up (but that's why they crack down on Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc)

So I think we might see another rebranding about what it means to be the n1 economy. Or they might come up with a new metric hehe.

The fact of the matter is that China's rule won't last long because:

1) It's governed by a bunch of hand picked corrupt and ignorant bunch called the CCP (although they've done propaganda and brainwashing far better than the USSR, I'll give them that)

2) There's a demographic bomb incoming for China (not enough children).

Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by tartoran on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @05:41PM (#26483429)
How about the top down governing approach that works in some situations and is a disaster in others? Currently favorable but times change.

Second, we should not hope that an opponent does worse than us to make us look better but we should simply better ourselves in the first place. Currently I'm seeing only decline and disunity in the western civilization, very short term thinking and lack of vision, but I'm aware that's just a phase that is possible to flip anytime.

Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by gfiorav on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @07:47PM (#26484747)
I’m not hoping it goes bad for China. I’m just waiting for the CCP to turn against itself. It’s a matter of time. Too ignorant and unprepared.

The question is whether they will fall soon enough

Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by tartoran on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @08:12PM (#26484961)
That would be good for Chinese themselves in terms of human development, this growth has been stunted quite a bit but not sure if overall China would ever see such growth they had during the CCP. And that is part due to policies of IP theft and nationalism and so on. In the long term CCP is terrible for China but the last few decades it really worked well for them.
Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by gfiorav on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @11:44PM (#26486275)
Indeed! The CCP's time has past for sure. Nothing good can come from them at this point.
Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by tbihl on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @09:43PM (#26485538)
Pair (2) with a lack of immigration, which is what bails out the US from this problem (though it wouldn't be as extreme in any case). Wikipedia says China let in 1800 people in to US' 1.2 million in 2016.

This lack of immigration probably wouldn't be easily reversed, because Chinese governance and perhaps culture aren't well suited to absorbing heterogeneous groups.

Re:TikTok wants to keep tracking iPhone users with state-bac... by dirtyid on Tuesday March 16, 2021 @10:54PM (#26485964)
China's total new births last year was ~10 million. Lowest on record but still multiples more than US + immigration will replenish. Chinese scale = enough new birth/talent without immigration to rival entire OECD block until 2050s.

IMO China doesn't need immigration to survive the demographic crisis, it needs excess labour to manage the transition, declining / smaller total population is the goal - simply too many people right now. Tons of labour can be arbitraged between poor and rich provinces or imported from poorer neighbors on remittance basis without the massive welfare commitments of immigration. Western countries with comprehensive social welfare systems sustained by massive immigration have greater risk of collapse - note all the protests happening in first world countries due to system already fraying. Versus China where the bottom 50% will incrementally improve because they're barely above poverty in the first place. The income gap is so massive that it takes relative less resource redistribution to maintain stability. When 600M / 40% of the population accounts for 7% national GDP, a few years of "slow" national growth @5% generates enough wealth to increase their welfare by 40%. Compared to west where all signs indicate each generation will struggle more than the previous, combined with massive immigration and you have recipe for political instability. Unsustainable social safety net and demographic change due to immigration is as much of a ticking time bomb as declining demographics.