> There are dear family members who have disaffiliated with the Church, openly, and we love them and they are always included in our lives, certainly not shunned!

There are numerous former Mormons who have had the precise opposite experience. Doesn't take much time on, say, the "exmormon" subreddit to see the vast array of accounts of families ceasing communication. Yes, not all families will cut out their apostate members (some, like mine, have been approximately accepting of it - though to most of my Mormon family and friends I'm still pretty ambiguous around my apostasy, lol), but it's still a risk, and that risk can be leverage. Our faith - at least as portrayed by the Church - is one of conformity, and of social pressure to ensure that conformity.

> And God will be the judge, not rumors or such, so what He thinks is vastly more important to me than what "people" think (though I should try not to make false impressions on "people", too).

Sure, and that's fine and dandy until those rumors make it to your bishop and he takes you as dishonest during your next interview.

And this assumes that the evidence is indeed fabricated. Give me a room full of Mormons and I'll give you a room full of closeted smokers, alcoholics, porn watchers, sexual "deviants", and - worst of all! - coffee drinkers. These people are "closeted" for good reason; if your argument around confession and forgiveness held water, they would have already confessed these things, and accordingly wouldn't be very "closeted" anymore, now would they?

Humans are, well, human. Even ones that sincerely believe there to be a paradisical afterlife (and/or decreasingly-paradisical afterlives, as the case may be) waiting for them.

(Edited.)

That sounds sad.

I have found (the easy way and the hard way) that God is just and merciful, and expects us to be kind & honest, and trust the final judgement to Him.

I'm under the strong impression that our local and general leaders, or maybe about everyone else too, are aware of the things you talk about, that there is less deception than some might think, and really, the goal is to help, not condemn. Many things are structured with that help being available, if someone wants it. Even the online resources anyone can find, are extensive, and my own site links to many. Someone said, if you can't smell cigarette smoke at church meetings, we aren't doing our job. Some I know are open about their struggles (and/or opinions), and we can and should love them for the good that is in them.

Being wrongly judgemental or harsh is a sin too, I suppose a common one, and we are to love the sinner and help them if we can (and they want).

> Someone said, if you can't smell cigarette smoke at church meetings, we aren't doing our job.

Seems like none of the wards of which I've been a member have been doing their jobs, then.

> I'm under the strong impression that our local and general leaders, or maybe about everyone else too, are aware of the things you talk about, that there is less deception than some might think, and really, the goal is to help, not condemn.

That's nice. It's the precise opposite of what most ex-Mormons seem to have experienced, however. It's certainly the precise opposite of what various homosexual and transgender members have experienced, being pressured to suppress fundamental aspects of who they are for the sake of conformity, in turn driving quite a few to suicide.

We indeed can and should love all of our fellow God's children for the good that is in them. That does, however, entail accepting God's creations as they are, rather than insisting that they conform to some arbitrary standards set by scripture written and interpreted by the hands of those very same imperfect creations. To "help" someone deny one's own identity to oneself and to God is just as egregious of a sin as any other sort of harm one could inflict on another. If you do agree with that notion - that accepting who you are ain't a sin, and that coercing others to reject who they are is a sin - then you're in the wrong church, friend; I have a feeling you'll be following in my footsteps sooner rather than later.

But that's a bit beside the topic, the point of which being that relatively few wards operate in the way you describe - and that the way said wards do operate makes Mormonism a potential avenue for exploitation.

I think the bit about smoke was meant somewhat flippantly, to make a point and remind folks not to be wrongly judgemental. But as I noted elsewhere, being so is a sin and and I suppose church is for even the self-righteousness type of sinners, as we are all imperfect and should keep trying to be and do better. What a good way to help each other as we go through that process, regardless of what our individual needs may be along those lines.

What we all really are (children of God) is an important question, as is what He thinks about us as individuals. I don't think I can put it better than this (and many related resources for anyone who wants):

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=family+proclamation+site%3Achurcho...

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/search?lang=eng&query=ga...

It is also an important question whether the apostles really unitedly speak for God, and if the scriptures are true, if the Book of Mormon is what it says it is. I have determined, for myself, that the answer is (gratefully) yes, and written much more about that elsewhere. I also believe that anyone who wants can determine that for themselves, also; and we all will decide for ourselves.

It is great to live where we can speak our views clearly, regardless of whether they all agree, or which side of a question we favor.

> But that's a bit beside the topic, the point of which being that relatively few wards operate in the way you describe - and that the way said wards do operate makes Mormonism a potential avenue for exploitation.

I suppose if one loves anything more than truth, goodness, and the other things that lead to long-term joy (extending far beyond this mortality), rather than to regrets, that (which I see as a) misprioritization will always be an avenue for exploitation. Life is, in part, a chance to gain experience and learn, and make choices, in many situations, some very hard. Temptation and a imperfect world and the need we all have, to school, train, and bridle our own thoughts, desires, and habits, toward good things, provide many of those hard situations.

ps: the Handbook that desribes Church discipline is available online to all, and such discipline requires witnesses or confession (edit: or evidence, probably); so fabricated accusations, while probably painful, won't cause excommunication. There is also (to us) scripture that says Church discipline can only deprive one of membership, not of personal property or life, and that we should obey the law. Appeals are possible, and again, God knows everything anyway and things really can be OK.

pps: I have lived in and visited a variety of places, and I read a lot. The Church is the best influence in my life, helping me and others I know, in some very hard times. A lot there.

> such discipline requires witnesses or confession (edit: or evidence, probably)

Witnesses are straightforward: blackmail multiple members, or get some plants who are "new to the ward". Might take awhile to build up a ward-wide infiltration network, but it's likely worth it.

Hell, we're talking about the same demographic that routinely falls for MLM schemes like dōTerra. Once you get a bit of a nucleus, a ward's espionage machine can very well be self-maintaining and decentralized, using peer pressure and some judicious application of scripture to guilt-trip people into being informants.

As for evidence: that's the whole discussion here :)

> There is also (to us) scripture that says Church discipline can only deprive one of membership

Which is all that's really needed to be effective leverage.

The Book of Mormon says, IIRC 2 Ne 9: "Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell." This life isn't always fair, but we can trust Him to get it right in the end -- the important thing is that we are honest and never stop humbly trying to do what is right. I have learned we really can be OK.

Edit: Which doesn't make it easy or less real -- but knowing it really helps me.