News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by cesaref on Thursday March 11, 2021 @09:26AM (#26424307)
When you are in a position to pay someone full time to look after the web infrastructure of your project, that's when you should think this stuff through.

Before that, don't worry about the tech, go for what you know, and expect it to need totally re-writing at some point. Let's face it, this stuff moves quickly.

Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by marcosdumay on Thursday March 11, 2021 @11:42AM (#26425982)
That's not good. That kind of stuff must be derived from your business plan, not from the current situation. You should know that "if I'm successful at this level, I will need this kind of infrastructure" before the problems appear, and not be caught by surprise and react in a hush. (Granted that reacting in a hush will probably happen anyway, but it shouldn't be surprising.)

If your business requires enough infrastructure that this kind of tooling is a need at all, it may very well be an important variable on whether you can possibly be profitable or not.

Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by lmm on Friday March 12, 2021 @12:06AM (#26432386)
> You should know that "if I'm successful at this level, I will need this kind of infrastructure" before the problems appear, and not be caught by surprise and react in a hush. (Granted that reacting in a hush will probably happen anyway, but it shouldn't be surprising.)

What's the ROI on spending time on planning for that, given that you acknowledge that the response will be mess anyway? In my experience companies that planned for scaling don't handle it noticeably better than companies that didn't plan for it, so maybe it's better not to bother?

Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by rualca on Friday March 12, 2021 @01:48AM (#26432858)
> What's the ROI on spending time on planning for that, given that you acknowledge that the response will be mess anyway?

Let's put it this way: what's the ROI of failing to address any of the failure modes avoided or mitigated by taking the time to thing things through at design time?

Are you planning on getting paid when you can't deliver value because your service is down?

Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by lmm on Friday March 12, 2021 @02:27AM (#26433088)
The ROI of reducing time to market is huge, whereas I don't think I've ever seen thinking things through at design time deliver any real benefits (not even a reduced rate of outages).
Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by rualca on Saturday March 13, 2021 @10:02AM (#26446990)
> I don't think I've ever seen thinking things through at design time deliver any real benefits (...)

That's mostly the Dunning-Kruger rearing its head. It makes zero sense to state that making fundamental mistakes has zero impact on a project.

This type of obliviousness is even less comprehensible given that every single engineering field has project planning and decision theory imbued in its matrix, and every single intro to systems design book has its emphasis on failure avoidance and mitigation, but somehow in software development hacking is tolerated and dealing with perfectly avoidable screwups resulting from said hacking is ignored as if they were acts of nature.

Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by lmm on Sunday March 14, 2021 @09:06PM (#26461414)
I suspect it's tolerated because it works better; IMO the value of planning is something cargo-culted from engineering fields where changing something after it's partially built is costly. In software, usually the cheapest way to figure out whether something will work is to try it, which is in stark contrast to a field like physical construction.
Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by marcus_holmes on Thursday March 11, 2021 @05:58PM (#26430095)
if your business plan has this much detail, you'll spend more time updating it to reflect current reality than actually shipping features.

Companies that are growing fast enough to need Kubernetes are also changing fast and learning fast.

Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by Melkman on Thursday March 11, 2021 @10:02AM (#26424690)
Also, when cost caused by downtime and updates and/or hardware problems exceed the cost of this full time engineer. Even then K8s is probable not the next step. Simple HA with a load balancer and seperate test and production environments plus some automation with an orchestration tool works wonders.
Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by blacktriangle on Thursday March 11, 2021 @09:37AM (#26424414)
That's the best metric I've heard. When your Heroku bill is the same as what a full time ops person would cost, start looking to hire.
Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by jacquesm on Thursday March 11, 2021 @10:40AM (#26425149)
I would say it has to be at least double that and maybe even higher.
Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by rualca on Friday March 12, 2021 @01:51AM (#26432867)
If you are already deploying to Heroku, you are already doing ops.

It makes zero sense to presume you don't need to know what you're doing or benefit from automating processes just because you can't hire a full-time expert.

Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by blacktriangle on Friday March 12, 2021 @09:16AM (#26436028)
True, but there's a difference between solving ops problems by throwing more money at hardware and solving ops problems by thinking smarter. That's why I think that some multiple of an FTE salary is a good metric for when you start transitioning to more complex operational setups, because it gives you a number for when the gain of that new complexity is worth the cost.
Re:You don’t need all that complex/expensive/distracting inf... by marcus_holmes on Thursday March 11, 2021 @06:00PM (#26430114)
This. When you have enough revenue to hire new dev, and infrastructure is your most pressing problem to solve with that money, hire someone who knows this stuff backwards to solve it.