I never said nothing else existed before him, I just said Spanish cuisine became in vogue because of Ferran. That's undeiable, he put so many on the map, who had actually been doing things before Feran even took over El Bulgi, and kitchens in Basque Country were one of many examples.
My family is from Valencia and I did my summers there in my youth, I don't need to be 'schooled' on it's eclectic and highly regarded diverse cuisine. I just restated my views of how non-culinary people viewed Spanish and Italian cuisine below French.
I'm just saying go find someone not in the Industry or a devout foodie (before the internet no less) who knows about the intricacies of Asturian/Gallecian cuisine vs Catalan and then compare that to how lined up to work for free at El Bulgi.
My friend and cook moved from Brazil, then went to France and then to Andalucia and worked for nothing to be at El Bulgi Hotel... this is the power of marketing, none of which was found in Pais Basco for most where they had been serving some of the the best seafood for millenia. Nor was any of its offerings known outside of foodie circles; did all of that exist before Ferran? Of course, but I'm saying it wasn't well known until Ferran's avant garde cusinese made the masses pay attention to Spanish cuisine.
> The fact you are so supremely uneducated about something so well known means the rest of the comment can be taken with a pinch of salt, no pun intended.
Again, you can draw whatever conclusion you want from my comment, but I still don't see anything but conjecture on your part. Moreover, I'd ask what have you done in this Industry to speak with such an arrogant tone? I told you what I did, and why I have the opinion (key word here is opinion) that I do.
> Japanese food has minimalist traditions but it also has it hotpot of "add it all together" common recipes which are all fantastic.
Nabemono. And yes, that is true but have you ever made one?
It's a staple in my home: and its made from simple dashi with often small amounts of protein cooked in shabu-shabu manner with seasonal vegetables and often tofu and maybe noodles in some cases, how does that that detract from what I said about being in line with what I said?
Japanese cuisine is about subtlety and refined contrast between its flavours and maintaining textures. It's a fine balance of both. Bombarding you with immeasurable flavour is a very Kansai (specifically Osaka) thing but that's limited to street food, which is actually really good, too. And matches it's work hard, and party harder drinking culture.
But something like nabemono has nothing to do with that.
Again, I'm failing to see what YOU are actual rebuttaling against here other than your own conjecture.
> I save up to eat at great restaurants and go far off the trail for certain food experiences...
Awesome, and I can tell you fancy yourself as something of a foodie, but that doesn't mean you know anything of how food is or should be prepared and served best--do you study harvest dates for certain vegetable and fruit cultivars or trialed slaughter periods/season of livestock? I have, that was part of my farming apprenticeship. I used that experience in my culinary career, often to deaf ears which is why I focused on farm to tables.
There is something off-putting about what amounts to a client telling a cook about how something should be made, and then calling them supremely uneducated, don't you think?
Oh the self-awareness. You really believe whatever achievements you have give you the right to be arrogant, don’t you? They don’t. Clearly, as you have proven, experienced people can have terribly skewed opinions and most people realize that.
Maybe 20 years ago. "In vogue" in cooking changes every 3 years. See the rise of Peruvian cooking, Korean cuisine, or the incremental choice of vegan options on high end restaurants in the past 10 years.
> (before the internet no less)
Yeah in 1990-2005 the food culture of much parts of the world was under developed. That does not mean that it was the tradition of the country. You seem to conflate public knowledge with what a country is doing, and reputation and reality do not always match.
By the way the restaurant is called (was called) El Bulli, no idea why you called it Bulgi.
> Bombarding you with immeasurable flavour is a very Kansai (specifically Osaka)
I thought you said that it was not part of Japanese cuisine? You also disparaged sauces as elements used to hide flavour, when Japan is huge on sauces.
It is almost as if your "mantras" do not hold, even for the traditions you seem to cherish.
> There is something off-putting about what amounts to a client telling a cook about how something should be made, and then calling them supremely uneducated, don't you think?
Yes there is, hence why I admitted my snobbishness. But Me being a dickhead does not stop any of my points for being true.
You claimed the following things.
- Sauces are hindrance to dish that respects the quality of the products.
- You prefer Italian and Japanese traditions of cooking due to their minimalist approach and respect of seasonal offerings.
- You consider spiced foods detrimental to sophisticated palettes and the abuse of enhancers of flavours as an insult to delicate, respectful food items.
My reply was, as someone who also prefers simple, great ingredient dishes, that none of what you said holds up.
+ Sauces can be as much a staple of the dish as just something to hide the flavour.
Eg. You can hide shit cow cuts with a strong pepper sauce which French cuisine (and British) excels at. But you can also have a delicate creamy peppercorn sauce that highlights all the earthy undertones of a good grass fed Ox steak.
You can use curry and curcumin to hide terrible chicken breasts or hard lamb. But it can also be a rich sauce that bring an orchestra of flavour (not unlike good teriyaki can be).
+ Japanese/Italian traditions antiquated over sauce based French/ sauced and spiced Indian.
Despite the fact that Italian has traditions that use heavy handed spices, in a way Mexicans would heavily approve of. There is also the very glaring omission of how much of traditional Italian food is straight up hiding bad ingredients. Lasagna uses cheese and bechamel to hide many times little or bad quality mince meat, it was a way to feed a large family with very little quality meat. And so are many traditional Italian dishes. Of course a refined carbonara is incredible, but back in the day, some hard cheese a random egg you had lying around and a little pepper was not delicate or considered one of the best emulsified sauces. It was a "oh god how do I feed my family with 3 random things I have lying around". The home aspect of Italian cuisine is incredibly relevant to the conversation because the use of seasonal vegetables comes using whatever was at hand, is an incredibly humble origin that makes it so much more worthy of the international appraise it has now.
Now in terms of Japanese Cuisine. Yeah they do have tons of minimalist, respectful products. But outside of the fact you admitted they have tons of flavorful dishes (you put them aside as street food but at least admitted their existence). I do not think you really have looked closely at some of the product origin. Japan has eel all year round by buying it at absurd prices from European markets, their fishing industry is dodgy (to not call it criminal), none of this is in any way in line with your idea of "local sourced, respectful product". There is nothing respectful about cutting red tuna properly and putting it on sushi if you're driving the animal to extinction.
+ Spices, in general, are great. Which is why a lot of the original salaries where paid in spice. I assume you are not against all spices, so there is a line you draw. Pepper and salt are ok, but cinnamon and curcumin are too overpowering. It just seems like being under exposed to some spices and finding them strong. In europe cinammon is mostly used in desserts so some dishes that use it in India can seem a bit off putting at first, but the truth is, that it has a great pairing with many dishes. Being unused to something and calling it bad are two very different things.
Considering the things you prefer, Peruvian cuisine will be down your ally. Of all the South American cuisines its the most delicate. Maybe that is a more gentle introduction into their flavour profiles. Same way lebanese is a good introduction to Middle eastern. Once you "get" those, the more extreme versions, like Afghan food, or Oaxaca mexican flavours.
Not sure if there is a good introduction to Indian food, as their flavour profiles are all very stark. But the British versions are all tailored for european tastes, so maybe that is a good stepping stone instead of curry snacks.
To answer some of your questions.
> do you study harvest dates for certain vegetable and fruit cultivars or trialed slaughter periods/season of livestock?
Did not have to, grew up buying in a market, so only seasonal stuff was available. You kinda get a knack for when things will be coming around. Now that I live near a supermarket I am sad seeing certain veggies all year round.
> I'd ask what have you done in this Industry to speak with such an arrogant tone?
Nothing at all, but I have no issue with personal preferences. But putting down thousands of chefs work as inferior is not an opinion, its just factually wrong.
> Nabemono. And yes, that is true but have you ever made one?
I was thinking more in line of Okonomiyaki and its thousands of variations, not really a respectful dish, more of a "lets see what we have around". (Also I meant to say hotchpotch and the autocorrector put hot pot, just saw why you mentioned nabemono).
Can you suggest something that goes well with Cinnamon?
It's one of the spices I find the most intriguing! So common for desserts, even in the US, but not for savory food!
Sure! I have to admit is not a spice I use too much. (Brings back nostalgia of rice puddings etc). But it is quite an autumnal spice, so think of it like something that would go well with those flavours.
For example pork loins with apple can use a little clove or cinammon if you want to have it enhance the sweetness of the apple.
It also works well with nice autumn soups, butternut squash, pumpkin, carrot. All of those can have some cinammon and round the flavours of it.
It is also heavily used in some Indian dishes. Very flavourful sauces with gram masala, can again have cloves and/or cinammon added. I think it's quite varied the spices that different regions use but anything from butter chicken, to Korma to a more European style tikka masala can work with cinammon in certain combinations. But because the sauces are quite rich, you will notice it less.
Cinnamon is also added to chicken or mutton, such as in varuval (Malaysian dish adapted from a South Indian one).
Over in China (and also in Chinese communities in Southeast Asia): There's the Chinese five-spices, used a lot in BBQ pork. It typically has cinnamon and cloves along with star anises and two other spices.
If you have more questions about any of this, let me know!
Funny how it worked and people try to recreate that flavor when they don't have leftover tandoori chicken.
> The former only recently being in vogue because of the work Ferran Adria.
That is not true, Spain has many regions with formidable chefs. But for example the Basque country is one of the areas of the world with most Michelin Stars per square mile, comparable to Tokyo, New York etc. Basque cuisine is almost exclusively based on simple ingredients done well.
The fact you are so supremely uneducated about something so well known means the rest of the comment can be taken with a pinch of salt, no pun intended.
Japanese food has minimalist traditions but it also has it hotpot of "add it all together" common recipes which are all fantastic.
> mistaking culinary acceptance as desirable inclusiveness.
I am european, your comment is just misinformed and wrong. It is not even down to opinion, you are factually wrong and incredibly self confident based on meeting one Indian guy at work.
> Is it snobbery
Yes, and the worst kind. I say this as a snob myself. I save up to eat at great restaurants and go far off the trail for certain food experiences. But I have eaten in the worst joints in Sichuan with incredibly spicy food, and delicious traditional Pakistani curries and neither has ruined my palette to eat Sous vide sirloin with crystal salt