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Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by tzs on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @12:20PM (#26331472)
The lost sales argument generally only works in isolation.

Imagine if Adobe, say, had come up with a way to do perfect DRM so that it was impossible to pirate Photoshop back in the days when it cost several hundred dollars.

It's probably true that a huge number of the people who pirated it back then would not have bit the bullet and coughed up the hundreds of dollars for a license, and so them pirating it did not represent a lost sale to Adobe.

But...I doubt most of them would have thrown up their hands and said "I can't pirate Photoshop...so I'm just going to give up on graphics editing!" or decided to just do their graphics editing all in MS Paint.

A lot of them almost certainly would have bought some other commercial graphics editor that is much less expensive than Photoshop, such as Pixelmator Pro for around $40.

That's where the lost sales from piracy turn up--in the sales of the less expensive alternatives that people would have turned to had they not been able to pirate what they pirated.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by michaelbrave on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @01:01PM (#26332128)
I was actually of the opinion that Adobe for a long timer turned a bit of a blind eye toward piracy because many of the people who learned on it once they became professionals became paying customers. Almost like an unofficial free trial that felt more valuable in a way. They would stamp it out once in a while, but often it felt like until they became dominant that they were barely trying to do much about it.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by alasdair_ on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @03:41PM (#26334136)
Microsoft definitely had this strategy with early versions of Windows and quite a lot of specialist tools that cost thousands of dollars per license seem to have something similar going.

I can attest that when I was living on a few hundred dollars a month as a CS student, I pirated a very early version of the IntelliJ IDE. I don't feel bad about this, especially as I've been responsible for tens of thousands dollars worth of license sales for the same product over the years - if only a full-price version of IntelliJ was available, I'd have stuck with Netbeans/ Eclipse instead.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by XorNot on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @04:30PM (#26334863)
I mean Jetbrains free offerings are substantial anyway and I think just as effective these days. As soon as I found I needed remote debugging to just work, the money for an Ultimate license for myself was just sensible - I wanted to make sure I had the exact tools I needed at work everytime.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by boomboomsubban on Thursday March 04, 2021 @01:25AM (#26339271)
>Microsoft definitely had this strategy with early versions of Windows

I question this, purely because the "Open Letter to Hobbyists" shows Microsoft as pretty hostile basically immediately.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by magnetowasright on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @07:09PM (#26336776)
Agreed. Adobe creative suite being integrated in educational settings is exceptional advertising. Get the high school and uni classes using Adobe CS and people will go straight for pirating it instead of looking for alternatives. Same with proprietary OSes, or CAD software. If people learn the skills they need with your product, you’ll have the loop closed; the professional world uses the tools, and the next gen learned on them.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by markdown on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:35PM (#26333227)
This was also Microsoft's model with pirate versions of their software paving the way for MS to take over the developing world.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by comprev on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:40PM (#26333299)
I learned all my early MS sysadmin skills on a homelab made up of eBay HP servers/Cisco switches and pirated w2k/sbs2003. It allowed it to gain MCSA and get onto the operations career ladder where my employer had legit licenses.

I would bet good money the same applies to graphics people and Photoshop.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by GoblinSlayer on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @03:15PM (#26333793)
Now they offer github, vscode, typescript, .net core, azure(?) and have a big foothold in webdev ecosystem. And Microsoft knows how to monetize it and is well equipped to pull it off. We see history repeating before our eyes.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by daveidol on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:28PM (#26333159)
Interesting theory, although didn't they still make the DRM more advanced and harder to crack with each release?
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by junon on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:40PM (#26333303)
They changed it so as to invalidate old cracks. Whether or not it was harder is up for debate.

There were certainly better ways to do DRM at the time (even now) that Adobe was well within their monetary limits and interests pursuing. But of course, it was still cracked.

Also, for a hundred buck fee and some TPB/Demonoid credit, it's almost always worth it to a cracker to go after a flagship product.

There's also the running theory that Adobe was the one to release some of the cracks, namely because new releases of the Creative Suite back when it was new would be cracked nearly "instantly".

It's speculation, but the above theory would make a lot of sense - and, in my opinion, that's exactly what ended up happening, and what made Photoshop the industry leader over a pretty decent selection of alternatives at the time (though admittedly PS had already mostly established itself at the time anyway, but it could have probably been swayed).

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by mayniac on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @03:21PM (#26333872)
I believe all this as well. If they wanted to, Adobe could invest heavily in DRM that would take at least a few months to crack. But it's far cheaper to stick a login wall in front of download pages and support forums, monitor for corporate email addresses, and spend the money on going after companies that pirate their software. e.g. https://www.theverge.com/2015/1/29/7948241/forever-21-pirati...
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by charwalker on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @06:54PM (#26336628)
As late as 2010 one could copy the install folder to any other Windows PC and start a licensed copy, or one that worked the same. That drove maaany people with easy access to a decent (phone) camera to pirate. People my age went hard into the "Facebook Photographer" and a surprising number are still doing well in that area (anecdotal and maybe not so much last year).

I know some of those old friends stuck to Adobe while others looked for open source/free alternatives depending on budget/revenue. I think one even works at/with Adobe these days after trying to hack on more features more than 10 years ago. But it's the same reason Apple/Google want kids using their devices in schools. Train the next gen to want your product and let the marketing flow.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by hyperpallium2 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @01:16PM (#26332316)
Apparently, Adobe deliberately allowed pirating of photoshop, to maintain its status as a standard. Deny oxygen to competitors.

Adobe has always struck me as a company that understood software economics really well and really early on. They'd make money from proprietary stuff, then give it away before it made an opportunity for a competitor.

Actually, it's probably less the understanding, than the actual acting on it.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by MaxBarraclough on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:01PM (#26332852)
> Apparently, Adobe deliberately allowed pirating of photoshop, to maintain its status as a standard. Deny oxygen to competitors.

I can't confirm whether it's true, but I once read that Microsoft takes a similar approach to the unlicensed use of Windows in less wealthy nations. Even disregarding that it would likely be a losing battle, they'd rather it remain the norm than push people to the alternatives.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by HeyLaughingBoy on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:52PM (#26333472)
It's not just Adobe & Microsoft either. Lots of large companies with "product lines" do the same thing. e.g., an office equipment manufacturer might prefer that your entire office runs on their machines, even if it means that some of their machines have to sell at cost, or as a loss leader. If everything from paper printers, to bulk scanners to ID card printers are all sold by Acme into the same corporation's offices, it makes it much harder for AcmeCompetitor to get a foothold.

I used to work for a company that had a couple of "me too" products that they barely made any money on, but it was worth it to them to block a sale to the competition.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by boringg on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:34PM (#26333214)
Seems very plausible.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by banana_giraffe on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:00PM (#26332839)
> Apparently, Adobe deliberately allowed pirating of photoshop, to maintain its status as a standard. Deny oxygen to competitors.

I've often wondered about this claim. I've heard it as well, from many different sources. I could never find a source, every time I've looked, it's a web of "I've heard".

Obviously Adobe wouldn't issue a press release to this effect, but does anyone know where this wisdom originated?

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by GoblinSlayer on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @03:31PM (#26334002)
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-apr-09-fi-micro...

If you do business, you will study the market, those are results of the study.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by boringg on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:35PM (#26333238)
That's a good point could be just rumors but it does have a strong foundation of truth to it. One of those things that seems like we will never know for sure.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by vinger on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @03:24PM (#26333906)
I've seen an interview with the EA guys who say they would rather you pirate their product over someone's elses.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by Kluny on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:06PM (#26332907)
So true, and now that it's subscription-only, I only use Adobe when I don't have an employer willing to pay for my subscription. When I'm in a job that's less graphics-oriented or just messing around with personal projects, I use Affinity, even though I prefer Photoshop.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by idrios on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:56PM (#26333538)
Similar situation. Learned Photoshop in high school for an art class, got really good with it in college because my school gave it to us for extremely cheap. But now I don't have it, it's too expensive to pay for, I'm unwilling to pirate, so I've been getting pretty good with Gimp.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by orwin on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @12:41PM (#26331815)
Or more contributors to GIMP.

Let take an art student PoV, one doing MANA in France right now (16-17 yo not eligible for free version) or at any study level before Adobe did this "free for student" stuff. If he can't pirate it, he will use GIMP, probably. Considering my CS school had 5% ex-art student (with or without a complete art degree), if those had used GIMP instead, i'd dare say GIMP would have been close to PS in GUI and ahead in functionalities.

So piracy take contributor away from GNU projects!

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by GuB-42 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:28PM (#26333161)
My idea is that people pirating Photoshop were mostly hurting PaintShop Pro.

PaintShop Pro has always been Photoshop's little brother. It is quite capable though not as much as Photoshop. It is also much cheaper. If piracy didn't exist, I would expect a lot more people to buy it, but since for a pirate, they are both free, there is not much reason not to go with Photoshop. And pros will also go with Photoshop because even with the high price, it is worth it, especially if they learned on the cracked version...

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by majormajor on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @12:25PM (#26331568)
Former pirate here, I definitely would've shifted some spending around to get a few more games if I'd had to.

I probably would've bought fewer DVDs. My money went to movies - harder to pirate at DVD quality back in the late 90s! - because they were better protected than a lot of the games in the late 90s. Or maybe fewer console games, same story there. But those we could rent, too...

This wasn't "ecosystem" stuff like Photoshop either, this was games we played for a few months and then moved on.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by dehrmann on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @12:40PM (#26331787)
I wonder if Adobe putting more effort into anti-piracy would have made the GIMP better. For a while, I saw their stance on piracy as look the other way unless it's a business. Photoshop definitely has a learning curve (probably better than the GIMP's), and I could see amateur designers having experience with Photoshop as an asset.

That said, Photoshop and Minecraft are completely different products and markets.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by vmception on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:04PM (#26332886)
Doubt.

Obligatory photoshop piracy for an entire generation was the single biggest advertisement Adobe could have ever had.

This is the happy meal of the 21st century.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by Skhalar on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @01:24PM (#26332414)
Before I pirated PS I used GIMP.

After years of pirating PS, I ended up paying Adobe for 6+ years for Adobe CC because PS and Illustrator didn't even compare to GIMP/other softwares.

If they had perfected the DRM, and wasn't able to pirate. I don't think I would have ever paid for it.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by boringg on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:38PM (#26333270)
Do you think the guilt (was there even any guilt) of having pirated it for many years also made you guy in? I ask as a function of a business strategy they could have let people ride for free until at a certain point they might feel some kind of obligation. I doubt that was ever part of anyones strategy but in hindsight is kind of interesting to riff on.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by mywittyname on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @04:24PM (#26334775)
Non-business users will absolutely continue to pirate for as long as possible. Adobe products are basically unpiratable at this point, and the $20/mo subscription service is expensive, but reasonably affordable compared to the $600 or whatever the boxed software ran all those years ago.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by babypuncher on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @12:50PM (#26331941)
This is purely anecdotal, but my own experience backs this up.

I have known at least a dozen people who pirate software and entertainment purely because it's cheaper than paying for it. These are other software engineers, they all make plenty of money to afford this kind of stuff. I doubt they would stop watching TV or playing video games if piracy suddenly stopped being an option.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by iso1210 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @03:39PM (#26334099)
I torrented lower decks when it came out because they refused to take my money. It was out in Sep/Oct in the states, but not until January in the UK. Exactly the same reason I DCCed voyager episodes in the 90s

I've seen american TV, it's unwatchable. If there's no option to actually buy the content without pop up adverts for other shows, breaks in the narative, squishing of the screen, etc, I'll go to a supplier who can do that.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by thebigspacefuck on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @03:07PM (#26333692)
Mainly my reason for not pirating is legal, but I think it’s actually cheaper to pay $2-$4 to rent something than spend the money on hard drive space and a faster internet connection.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by leetcrew on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @03:47PM (#26334249)
probably not. you can just delete the file when you're done if you don't want to watch it again. 50 GB is more than enough to maintain a queue of a few movies/shows. if you have enough bandwidth to stream legally without buffering, you have (roughly) enough to do the same with torrents. most tv show torrents are just rips from legitimate streaming sites anyway.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by mam2 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @12:58PM (#26332072)
Why would you buy it anyway ? It's not like the music / cinema industry is in trouble.

If it's only to be the "good guy" then well congrats.. here's your medal.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by leetcrew on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:30PM (#26333177)
I'm somewhat apathetic regarding the health of the music/tv/movie/game industries as a whole. I do care about specific shows, artists, and games though, and revenue is an important signal that businesses use to decide what to make more or less of in the future. if you don't pay for anything, you're essentially throwing away your vote. as a group, pirates are accepting that they only get to select from things that other people are willing to pay for.
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by babypuncher on Friday March 05, 2021 @02:09PM (#26360762)
Why would I not just leave my empty plastic bottle on the beach? It's not like the beach is in trouble because of my one bottle. People only avoid littering because they want to be the "good guy".
Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by njharman on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @01:53PM (#26332749)
Part of the point is perfect DEn costs. Even shotty DRM costs a lot. To develop, to maintain and upgrade as it is defeated. On top of that is costs to customer frustration and loss of utility.

It is better to spend on making your product better, your customers happier. Then chase tiny amount hostile users.

Re:Piracy is not theft, Lost sales don't exist, says Minecra... by bluedino on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @01:53PM (#26332761)
>> "I can't pirate Photoshop...so I'm just going to give up on graphics editing!"

Jasc's Paint Shop Pro was ~ $99, Corel was about half the price of PhotoShop...