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Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by chrisco255 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:45AM (#26325763)
Why can't Bitcoin simply transition to proof of stake after mining dries up? Once there are few or no bitcoins left to mine then PoW is a lot of ceremony for very little security gain at that point (and perhaps opens up risks that this paper points out).
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by tromp on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:57AM (#26325842)
> simply transition to proof

As opposed to Proof-of-Work, Proof-of-Stake is not as simple as it sounds. Any implementation faces a myriad of design challenges and potential attacks. Things like "nothing-at-stake", "costless simulation", "stake grinding", and "long-range attacks" [1]. And in the end, there is no objective truth about the state of the chain, as there is with PoW's simple longest chain rule.

There is nothing simple about a Bitcoin "transition" either, as should be evident from the endless blocksize debates, and resulting Bitcoin Cash chain splits. That was only about changing a single parameter. Now you're talking about changing the very essence of Bitcoin, with dozens if not hundreds more dimensions of choices and opportunities for disagreements.

[1] https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by chrisco255 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @12:17PM (#26331423)
Oh I know the political implications of changing BTC are high, but the main arguments against changing anything to do with Bitcoin are its security profile. I agree that BTC is the most secure chain. But, if the mining reward dries up to the extent that it is less secure as transaction fees take dominance, then the community will have to sacrifice one of their sacred cows: 21 million supply or proof-of-work. Neither one of those are easy to change, but if necessary, it will have to.
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by DennisP on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @08:16PM (#26337344)
Proof-of-stake has progressed quite a bit since that document was published in 2016. For example, nothing-at-stake is fixed by slashing stake when anyone submits a proof that the staker signed competing branches.

(But I agree that Bitcoin is unlikely to change.)

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by cyphertruck on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @03:00AM (#26325859)
There is no such thing as “Proof of stake” to replace proof of work. Proof if work is a solution where you do not have to trust anyone, as the block is won by the person who finds the right math result, essentially a lottery.

Proof if stake is either really proof of work that is less secure and obscured, or more often dimply giving the creators of the coin the power and your trust.... which reverses the entire point of the creation of bitcoin.

PoW’s purpose isn't to distribute coins (though rewarding whales is the purpose of PoS).

PoW’s purpose is to decentralize control so nobody can control and make the system trustless.

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by 0x64 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @04:19AM (#26326279)
>Proof if work is a solution where you do not have to trust anyone, as the block is won by the person who finds the right math result, essentially a lottery.

The same applies to Eth2's PoS network, as block proposers are randomly selected with on-chain randomness. Block rewards are also not a major source of income for a staker on Eth2 — the majority of income (>90%) comes from simply attesting the chain correctly. This attesting occurs once an epoch for every validator, or every 32 blocks.

>Proof if stake is either really proof of work that is less secure and obscured, or more often dimply giving the creators of the coin the power and your trust....

PoS vs. PoW is really only a matter of how you ensure your chain can't be attacked. For PoW it's equipment cost, burnt electricity, and opportunity cost for losing rewards due to attacking the chain. For PoS, the security is ensured through a high-enough buy-in cost (32 Eth), and penalizing attackers harshly through slashing.

You can imagine how expensive it would be to accumulate enough Ether to attack the current PoS chain. There is 3.3 million Ether staked across over 100,000 validators, and one would need more than half of that total stake to have a chance at attacking the network, a failed attack resulting in massive slashings. This is made even harder as the attesting validators are shuffled continuously.

I personally loathe the energy consumption of PoW, and believe PoS to be the future. The fact that hundreds of validators can be run on just 5 watts of power should say enough.

If all validators on the current Eth2 PoS chain were run on individual machines, the energy consumption would be ≈4.4 GWh yearly vs. the current PoW chain's ≈25 TWh — a 5000-fold decrease. This is decrease is in reality probably even larger since pools, decentralized and centralized, will be running multiple validators on a single machine which affects resource usage very minimally.

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by xorcist on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @07:34AM (#26327530)
> really only a matter of how you ensure your chain can't be attacked

The consensus mechanism serves two distinct purposes. The first is to keep global monotonic time (which is what you call "protect from attacks"). The second is as an inflation protocol. Any time you create value where there previously wasn't you have inflation.

> a failed attack resulting in massive slashings

That's not a good mental model for adverse actors in blockchain systems. Failed attacks are normally not published, so they won't exist unless the conditions are right.

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by ryebit on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @09:17AM (#26328553)
What would a successful attack even look like?

My understanding was that malicious validator has to publish votes for two different blocks in one round; which then can be used to slash them. Unlike PoW they can't "sit" on their second vote, because voters are known ahead of time, and once vote is done, opportunity is gone.

They also can't choose transactions to go into block unless they're the proposer, so that's only time they can control whether attack will even benefit them.

So they'll have to wait to get randomly assigned as proposer, in a committee where they control enough of the other randomly selected validators, and have pending txns at the ready to double spend (while receiving party has been sitting waiting for funds).

And even then, won't that just create a fork where the minority of the validators recognize the double vote, and slash them anyways? And what users / services will stay w original fork given that proof?

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by hjorthjort on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @05:14AM (#26326630)
> and one would need more than half of that total stake to have a chance at attacking the network

Actually 1/3rd to disrupt consensus, and 2/3rds + 1 to take control of the chain like you could with a 51% attack on a PoW chain, only you'd get almost immediate and complete control over the consensus.

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by throw_away_moth on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @06:42AM (#26327152)
The strength required to take control is probably 1/3 as it is with most Byzantine setups. (The 1/3 control attack against Bitcoin is selfish mining.)
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by hjorthjort on Thursday March 11, 2021 @10:57AM (#26425380)
You can't control the network with 1/3 with BFT consensus, you need 2/3rds.
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by antocv on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @03:40AM (#26326049)
The way to understand this, ask if PoS would have been bitgold released in 2009.

As bitcoin wasnt valued in 2009-2011, its value in USD was basically zero. Yet the cost of attacking the PoW even during that time was the cost of electricity which was higher than zero.

PoS, if it was released in 2009 instead of PoW, the cost to attack it would have been zero, as the price of bitcoin was.

There is a solution to this but none of the shitcoins have it implemented, instead chosing to give the creators all the power and majority stake.

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by Kbelicius on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @05:21AM (#26326670)
> There is a solution to this but none of the shitcoins have it implemented, instead chosing to give the creators all the power and majority stake.

What is the solution you are thinking about? Interestingly enough, IIRC, the very first PoS coin did not give the creators all the power and majority stake.

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by antocv on Friday March 05, 2021 @04:21AM (#26354770)
I hate the entire cryptospace and all the damn shilling of every shitcoin in every corner of the internet. I hate it with a burning passion, I hate all the shitcoins which overpromise and deliver shitty SQL servers.

If it is good enough you and others will be able to find it, without anyone needing to name-drop or shill it. If it isint easy to find, well it isnt and deserves to die. But please if/when you find it, dont shill it, dont mention it.

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by chrisco255 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @12:28PM (#26331611)
That sounds nice in theory, and for the first few years of Bitcoin's existence, this was largely true. However, once ASICs were engineered, and once large mining operation data centers were brought online, it has become more of a cartel than a "democratic system no one person controls". I like a chain beginning its life as PoW and then later as it matures transitioning to PoS.

At some point, the mining rewards will dry up, as this paper points out. Then the game theory mechanics for BTC will change such that transaction ordering and execution become the main competition for miners to fight for, with some blocks being much more profitable than others despite electricity costs remaining static for each block. That's a huge problem, and PoW doesn't have the fix for that.

Ethereum's current proposal on this is to burn transaction fees. This is possible because ETH doesn't have a capped issuance, so block rewards will never dry up. Bitcoin doesn't have this option. It will have to, at some point in the future (maybe 20 years, I dunno), either give up 21 million capped supply or Proof-of-Work to sustain itself.

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by je_bailey on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @11:51AM (#26331004)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but Cardano's Proof of Stake seems to be working rather well while rewarding everyone who gets involved. Whale status or not. So I'm not understanding why you seem to disregard PoS as a solution when there are working solutions
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by toomim on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @03:02AM (#26325875)
It's difficult for the Bitcoin community to find consensus on changes to the consensus rules. We couldn't change a constant from 1MB to 2MB. I think changing PoW entirely is extremely unlikely to happen. It's much easier for the people who believe in PoS to sell their Bitcoin and buy Ethereum instead.
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by xorcist on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @07:41AM (#26327582)
Or any of the other PoS coins. If you want to invest (which is a word I hesitate to use in the context of any cryptocurrency) in a PoS coin there are more mature ones.

It would be interesting if someone would research why this hasn't already happened? It's not like that alternative hasn't been available for a long time now.

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by mminer237 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @11:32AM (#26330671)
Bitcoin's value is not based on its technical ability or its usefulness. No one understands or care about PoW vs PoS. Its only practical worth is its name recognition driving more people to buy it as an investment. Bitcoin beat Ethereum and Bitcoin Cash and Ripple and Monero and every other coin because it was first, and people know the name "Bitcoin", and they've never heard of any altcoin.
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by imtringued on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:39PM (#26333284)
At some point it will fail because of its technical failures though. The people buying it assume that Bitcoin as it is, is already perfect and never has to change when that is far from the truth.
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by intotheabyss on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @08:33AM (#26328042)
Casper and LMD GHOST (which is what Eth2 uses) is one of the most mature proof of stake consensus algorithms out there. The other is Tendermint, but that's a practical BFT algorithm, so limited to 100-300 validating nodes, whereas ETH2 has hundreds of thousands of validators.
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by chrisco255 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @12:11PM (#26331349)
Network effects and also, any chain that starts as a Proof-of-Stake chain suffers from the problem of early investors and early developers essentially controlling huge chunks of the supply (sometimes 80%+), so there is much larger centralization risk and a less distributed community. I think beginning as Proof-of-Work and then many years later transitioning to Proof-of-Stake is one of the fairest distribution methods. In Ethereum (and Bitcoin), for example, no one person controls more than 1% of the supply. That will serve to hopefully make it more resilient to collusion and cartel mechanics.
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by xiphias2 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @02:53AM (#26325818)
It's because just because you write ,,simply'', it's not a simple thing. Just as an example Ethereum was trying hard to do it for many years now without any success.

But the real reason is that there is no real solid formally written and proven ,,proof of stake'' algorithm so far.

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by chrisco255 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @03:00AM (#26325862)
ETH2 proof of stake beacon chain shipped in December. There's tens of thousands of ETH2 validators live today. Proof of work is still in place for base chain, so ETH is a hybrid currently. But they'll be off proof of work within a year to year and a half. For blockchains as big and old as Bitcoin and Ethereum I understand migrating to a new consensus algorithm is no easy task and comes with risks. But it is doable. And they could even prove it out on one of the many BTC forks or dupes such as BCH or Doge or Litecoin if need be. My question isn't about the technical feasibility, but I'm more interested in the game theory mechanics. The arguments against proof of stake from that point of view seem to dry up as mining rewards dry up, no?
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by 0x64 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @04:38AM (#26326386)
>There's tens of thousands of ETH2 validators live today.

Over 100,000 as of a few days ago!

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by xiphias2 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @08:38AM (#26328099)
If ETH is hybrid now, how much it helped the energy usage? Did it go down significantly compared to a year ago (even if measured in ETH)?

Bitcoin had a halving, which was very sifnificant energy usage decrease measured in BTC (which caused the significant price increase).

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by melolife on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @08:51AM (#26328256)
ETH cannot be described as a hybrid. The 2.0 chain is currently independent of the existing chain. The plan is to dock the existing chain as a shard of the new one, at which point it immediately becomes 100% proof of stake.
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by chrisco255 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @12:07PM (#26331274)
Calling the halving a significant energy usage decrease is the opposite of what happens after a halving. A halving means miners are paid half as many BTC for discovering new blocks, then prices increase, which means that miners can afford (and typically must to stay competitive) to pay more for mining equipment and electricity to mine blocks profitably.
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by ajkdhcb2 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @04:04AM (#26326192)
The bitcoin community is at a general consensus that PoS is inherently insecure
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by intotheabyss on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @08:33AM (#26328048)
The bitcoin community would be wrong.
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by ajkdhcb2 on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @11:04AM (#26330194)
It seems very simple to me. The network would be controlled by custodians including exchanges and banks. And under an attack the network would be over: the malicious stakers can basically pay themselves and suffer no cost to continue the attack. Conversely with PoW there is a sustained huge expense to continue to perform an attack, and the PoW can be changed by a fork. I would never consider this to be acceptable. Not that ASICs run by China aren't currently an abysmal situation either, but that is only a problem because bitcoin has no privacy
Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by DennisP on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @08:28PM (#26337429)
Malicious stakers could not reverse transactions without losing their stake. It's as if a 51% attacker in PoW got their mining rig burned down.

Malicious stakers could indefinitely conduct a censorship attack. To address this, the PoS equivalent of changing the hash function would be to fork the chain and leave out the attackers' stake.

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by uncletammy on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @10:06AM (#26329259)
It is without a doubt the only thing they can agree on.

... well except for these guys https://www.bitcoinpos.net/

Re:On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward [pdf] by hfsp on Wednesday March 03, 2021 @09:52AM (#26329042)
Btc is what it it is because it is NOT centralized.

pos = centralization risk.

pos = shitcoin.

If you want to read in depth: https://voskuil.org/cryptoeconomics/cryptoeconomics.pdf.