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Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by Zealotux on Thursday February 25, 2021 @10:15AM (#26263593)
From a non-US point of view, this whole anti-union strategy from Amazon is somehow hilarious to witness on top of being sad. This kind of propaganda feels like its coming from another age, or dimension.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by faitswulff on Thursday February 25, 2021 @10:40AM (#26263924)
Amazon literally employs a union busting company from the last century (edit: from two centuries ago, apparently):

> The Pinkerton National Detective Agency was founded as a private police force in Chicago in 1850, and quickly expanded its reach; its detectives initially focused on catching thieves and burglars, but soon became the bane of the labor movement for their work as enthusiastic, vicious strikebreakers. Throughout the Civil War era and in the decades after, Pinkerton operatives left their bloody mark on strikes, protests, and massacres, and gained a ruthless reputation for protecting the interests of capital by any means necessary.

> [...]

> The Pinkertons, who are now a subsidiary of Swedish security company Securitas AB, are reportedly cozying up to 2020’s version of the Gilded Age robber baron: Silicon Valley tech bosses like billionaire vampire Jeff Bezos, who has hired the Pinkerton Detective Agency to reportedly surveil workers in at least one of Amazon’s European warehouses and infiltrate its worksite, according to documents obtained by the publication.

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/who-were-the-pinkertons

And yes, that is a Teen Vogue link, and yes, it’s worth reading.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @10:47AM (#26264056)
When Teen Vogue calls someone a "billionaire vampire", is that a compliment, or are vampires out again?
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by rtkwe on Thursday February 25, 2021 @10:59AM (#26264228)
Billionaire vampire is out, vampire billionaire is ambiguous though I think the YA romance industry has moved on since 2010.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by tyingq on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:21AM (#26264508)
I do get the joke, but to balance it a bit, the writer is a freelancer, and does appear to have pretty good chops around labor issues. https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimmkelly
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by lovegoblin on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:00PM (#26265021)
Yeah, Teen Vogue has plenty of solid journalism.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:08PM (#26265106)
I'm genuinely not sure if this is sarcasm or not. Teen Vogue is certainly surprisingly serious, but my standard for "solid journalism" involves some attempt at neutrality and objectivity as opposed to hyper-partisan ideology marketed to children. To be quite clear, the overall modern media landscape is highly partisan and sensationalist; Teen Vogue mostly only stands out in that they're marketing their divisive ideology directly to children.

EDIT: This is unsurprisingly attracting downvotes. I'm curious if people are objecting to the characterization of Teen Vogue as partisan and ideological or the implication that marketing divisive ideology to children is a social ill? Or perhaps that journalism should aspire toward the truth and not partisan advocacy?

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by kick on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:05PM (#26267549)
Journalism was rarely feigning objectiveness: during the 1920s through the 1970s, some of the strongest voices in favor of labor were journalists. "Neutrality" is largely a construct, or meme, that has been pushed by Rupert Murdoch since he founded his "news" network. Naturally, his own properties are nowhere near objective, despite some people claiming WSJ magically escapes bias.

Everything is naturally biased, the only distinction is whether an entity is open about their bias. This goes for anything: whether it was the New York Times and FOX hawking for nearly every war during the 2000s, or it was Newsweek favoring MLK Jr. and Life describing his speeches with phrases like "demagogic slander" during the 1960s, everyone's naturally got an opinion. This doesn't stop applying when writing about a subject.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @04:48PM (#26268759)
> Journalism was rarely feigning objectiveness

Granted. The extent to which journalism is valuable is the extent to which it is neutral and objective. When it abandons even the pursuit of truth, it becomes a social ill.

> Everything is naturally biased, the only distinction is whether an entity is open about their bias.

I don't think this is true on any level of analysis (though it is one of the most popular and obvious of mistruths). At the individual level, one can choose to counterbalance his biases or commit himself to them. He can choose to lean on rhetoric or reason. He can debate against his most competent opponents or he can choose stooges. He can choose between straw men and steel men. He can choose to be honest (if fallible) or dishonest.

At an organizational level, we can choose between orthodoxy and heterodoxy. We can have an ideological monoculture or a diverse culture. We can build a culture that calls out rhetoric and favors reason. The net result of a heterodox organization isn't the absolute lack of bias, but the bias is severely attenuated compared to the modern newsroom.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by faitswulff on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:57PM (#26266636)
Sure, I’ll bite. I downvoted you because it’s not partisanship or divisiveness that should be decried, but the immense wealth inequality in the United States. And perhaps Teen Vogue is progressive because that’s where their readership already is, as opposed to them simply preying on a vulnerable population.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:04PM (#26267538)
Thanks for responding. For what it's worth, I fully agree that wealth inequality is one of the most important issues in America. On many policy issues, I'm progressive. But I just can't get behind political propaganda ('advocacy', if that's easier to swallow) billing itself as 'journalism', which I believe should ultimately be about seeking the truth (and ergo a pursuit of neutrality and objectivity). Journalism is most valuable when it hosts a robust debate; when one party to the debate is consistently a stooge or a caricature, the "debate" is less than worthless. The ideals of neutrality and objectivity are particularly important when children are the audience--the objective should be teaching children to think for themselves, not teaching them what they ought to think. Once upon a time I understood these to be progressive values.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by shmageggy on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:26PM (#26267809)
> ’journalism', which I believe should ultimately be about seeking the truth (and ergo a pursuit of neutrality and objectivity)

This doesn’t exist. I haven’t yet given up hope that it could someday exist, but as far as I can tell it doesn’t currently. Would love to be proven wrong though.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @04:26PM (#26268539)
A perfectly neutral and objective journalism hasn't existed, but the aspiration toward neutrality and objectivity have existed and even been mainstream at points in our history. In my lifetime, it's a relatively recent phenomena that media outlets were openly biased, viewing their function as "activism" rather than truth-seeking.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by shmageggy on Thursday February 25, 2021 @06:36PM (#26269778)
Maybe I'm just being cynical but I disagree. It may have appeared so outwardly, but I'm skeptical that the core motivation for mainstream journalism has ever been objectivity. I mean Manufacturing Consent is from 1988 and covers much of the 20th century, and it's not like things have improved since.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @07:36PM (#26270228)
Do you think the media landscape of the 90s and 00s was just as partisan and sensationalist as today? Can you imagine the media reporting outright, easily verifiable falsehoods on their front page? Where were the 90s reporters standing in front of a burning building talking about “mostly peaceful protests”? Or the Damore memo being called “an anti-diversity screed” or the whole Covington Catholic affair? That was once the realm of parody. Before 2014, I think BLM coverage would have been “The left is angry about disproportionately black police shootings, but the moderates point out that blacks commit more violent crime and also here are some heinous anecdotes of police killings of white people. Everyone agrees that there are too many police killings. Stay tuned for a story about a dancing bear after the break.”.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by bitdizzy on Thursday February 25, 2021 @09:16PM (#26270772)
The media helped the Bush administration manufacture consent for the second gulf war. The infamous lies peddled on every major news channel and newspaper are recorded for all time.

Parenti wrote Inventing Reality and Chomsky wrote Manufacturing Consent in the 80's. Your examples of lies that that you believe demonstrate how especially bad media is today just reveal that you only notice certain exaggerations or interpretations of news that go against your politics.

I presume you think yourself unbiased too.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @10:25PM (#26271075)
My politics are left wing. I could no doubt pick some fox news examples if I watched/read that outlet. The media may have helped Bush’s war, but they weren’t uniformly conservative and they also didn’t tell overt, easily verifiable lies. It’s one thing to report that the intelligence community says there are WMDs, and quite another thing to outright lie about the contents of a memo or a video which are publicly available.

> I presume you think yourself unbiased too.

0/2 on your assumptions about me. Of course I’m biased; everyone is biased. The difference is that I don’t double down on my biases, but rather challenge and evolve them by reading and debating other points of view. Note that the stark contrast between that and the folks (esp in the media) who persecute others for ideological transgressions.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by bitdizzy on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:08AM (#26272082)
You're not left wing. You're a liberal.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Friday February 26, 2021 @09:50AM (#26275299)
Liberals are left of center in American politics, but whatever. I like liberalism and I favor policies that are frequently associated with progressives.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by kick on Thursday February 25, 2021 @09:23PM (#26270810)
Fox News was notoriously famous for having extremely negative coverage on African Americans during the 1990s through 2014. They still are famous for that. National Review was extremely famous for it, too. The New York Times was also a conservative outlet, as I mention elsewhere, having hawked for every war since Vietnam.

Even the person Damore was inspired to write his manifesto because of (SlateStarCodex) admitted it was too far.

Biased reporting isn't new, it's always been universal, and it'll never go away. You just sound like you want more conservative outlets. Here's a tip: Turn on your local news. Local news in America is almost always owned by one of three conservative companies (Sinclair and Nextstar come to mind most immediately), and all of them have an extremely conservative bent.

That's not even getting into the bias of media on scientific issues. HIV/AIDS never got proper coverage, and the coverage it did get was usually outright wrong and hostile during the 1990s. Climate change? Completely debatable! A matter of emotion! They were still pushing that up until a few years ago. Encryption? Can be government-crackable and still secure! That's been a constant topic since the 1990s, too!

https://www.vox.com/2015/3/26/8296091/media-bias-race-crime

According to a report by the progressive research center Media Matters, New York City television stations give disproportionate coverage to crimes involving black suspects.

The Media Matters study found that between August 18 and December 13, 2014, the stations (WCBS, WNBC, WABC, and WNYW) used their late-night broadcasts to report on murder, theft, and assault cases in which African Americans were suspects at rates that far exceeded African-American arrest rates for those crimes.

There's always bias. Always will be bias. The above issue was even worse in the past.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Friday February 26, 2021 @10:17AM (#26275576)
Yes, Fox is part of the problem and there will always be bias, but again, there’s a difference between being biased but aspiring for the truth and committing oneself to one’s biases (partisanship). The media landscape of yore was mostly the former even though Fox and other outlets were exceptions to the rule. Today’s media landscape is almost entirely partisan with few outlets that seem to aspire toward neutrality and objectivity.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by faitswulff on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:43PM (#26268020)
You seem to be conflating neutrality and objectivity with bipartisanship. It's pretty obvious that there is only one party in the USA that even pretends to value neutrality and objectivity, and it's not the party that elected Donald Trump.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @04:33PM (#26268617)
No one is talking about bipartisanship. I chose my words deliberately; there is no subtext. :)
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by faitswulff on Thursday February 25, 2021 @07:17PM (#26270097)
That seems revisionist. Your earlier comment specifically mentions “hyper-partisanship.”
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @07:53PM (#26270331)
It’s not revisionist, but I see now where the misunderstanding is. Partisanship means “commitment to an ideology”.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by faitswulff on Thursday February 25, 2021 @08:10PM (#26270449)
Interesting, that is one definition of partisanship:

> the quality or state of being partisan : strong and sometimes blind adherence to a particular party, faction, cause, or person [0]

Didn't know that, thanks.

[0]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/partisanship

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by lovegoblin on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:11PM (#26265141)
I assure you it is not sarcastic at all.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:19PM (#26265249)
Thanks for clarifying.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by tor11 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:23PM (#26267007)
funny.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by Der_Einzige on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:01PM (#26265868)
They call Bezos a vampire because he uses other peoples blood plasma to keep himself young and healthy.

He's a fking vampire.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by throwaway894345 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:41PM (#26266427)
I thought it was because he sparkles in the sunlight.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by phabora on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:59PM (#26265822)
The meaning is pretty straightforward to interpret.

Vampires suck blood.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by shmageggy on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:23PM (#26267766)
I’ve seen Teen Vogue pop up a few times in recent years. Seems like a mix of deeper coverage is working out well for them https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/12/te...
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by alvarlagerlof on Thursday February 25, 2021 @07:41PM (#26270262)
Are those the same Pinkertons as in RDR2
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by op03 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:18AM (#26264476)
The RWDSU has a long history of dealing with much worse - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retail,_Wholesale_and_Departme...
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by onion2k on Thursday February 25, 2021 @10:51AM (#26264103)
I'm going to assume you're not in the UK, because this is straight out of UK government's playbook during the 70s and 80s when they were union busting the mining and engineering unions. The page on Wikipedia about the union leader Derek Robinson is an eye-opener ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Robinson_(trade_unionist... ) ... pay close attention to the work of MI5 in bringing his union activity to an end.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by Ozzie_osman on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:07AM (#26264317)
There was a pretty big smear campaign against Arthur Scargill too. https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2017-07-26/miners-strik...
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by Someone1234 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @10:31AM (#26263793)
The depressing part is that this is actually an improvement over the violence and intimidation tactics of America's past. The US has never been a particularly union supportive country.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_th...

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by pydry on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:26AM (#26264577)
There's still time to return to the good old days when the boss called in a private air force to drop poison gas and bombs on striking workers.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by ModernMech on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:20PM (#26266967)
Yes, this is a good reminder that the first areal attack on US soil was not Pearl Harbor, but was against striking workers in 1921 at the Battle of Blair Mountain.

"By August 29 battle was fully joined. Chafin's men, though outnumbered, had the advantage of higher positions and better weaponry. Private planes were hired to drop homemade bombs on the miners. A combination of poison gas and explosive bombs left over from World War I were dropped in several locations near the towns of Jeffery, Sharples and Blair." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

Someone else in the thread mentioned a revived push for "company towns", which is exactly what these workers were fighting against. Being fired from their company meant losing their job and their house, since it was owned by the company. Honestly, it's not much different from being fired in 2021 and losing your job and your health insurance.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by scollet on Thursday February 25, 2021 @05:13PM (#26269003)
This is a good reminder that the Tulsa Massacre occurred about 4 months earlier.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by Nacdor on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:45PM (#26266494)
Amazon uses agents from a company named Pinkerton to spy on their workers: https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dp3yn/amazon-leaked-reports...

No idea if it has any relation to the original Pinkerton strike-breakers, but using that name is pretty callous given its history.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by fl0wenol on Thursday February 25, 2021 @04:15PM (#26268431)
It is one and the same.

What's more is that it isn't some sort of ironic twist of circumstances, it's just that there aren't a lot of organizations you can call for that kind of work at scale.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by mytailorisrich on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:02PM (#26265891)
In Europe, at least in some countries, forming a union is a right and there is no need to organise a ballot so companies can do much less to prevent it but they obviously still do all they can.

As long as they act within the law it's fair game really because it's obviously not in a company's interest to have unions.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by walshemj on Thursday February 25, 2021 @04:14PM (#26268426)
Forming is one thing actually getting recognition is much harder.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by mytailorisrich on Thursday February 25, 2021 @04:38PM (#26268658)
Again, this depends on the country. Where forming an union is a right, the obligation for the company to recognise it may also be the law.

For example on France there are unions at Amazon and they are recognised. Why? Because in law there is nothing Amazon can do about either.

This is annoying for companies but it cuts down on the BS.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by nabla9 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @10:35AM (#26263858)
The sadness is build into the US labor laws.

The US has enterprise level bargaining (as does UK). In enterprise bargaining anything that helps workers hurts enterprises against their nonunionized competition. It's a bad system to have as a main method.

Most other countries have versions of sectoral bargaining system, sometimes with some national and enterprise level aspects. Once you understand the difference, it's easier to understand why in the US unions and enterprises have so bad relationship.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by malf on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:13AM (#26264410)
That explains a lot. Thanks!
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by pfortuny on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:07PM (#26265097)
Which looks even worse than Victorian England and the factory workers (or the women at textile works)... So unbelievably immoral.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by TrackerFF on Thursday February 25, 2021 @11:03AM (#26264270)
In the US, almost everything boils down to money and special interest. Amazingly enough, unionization hasn't been outlawed, despite the massive efforts from industry.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by cat199 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:14PM (#26266068)
> Amazingly enough

Not so amazing when you look at DNC backers, July 30, 1975, etc. More radical unions (e.g. IWW) tend to look at the 'mainstream' unions as 'bosses unions' or 'controlled opposition', and the more libertarian minded often similarly view the relationship between unions and capital as power plays by big corps to raise the 'free market' price of labor and consolidate power.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by walshemj on Thursday February 25, 2021 @04:04PM (#26268314)
From the UK the IWW is seen not as a real union but as a "club" - the is a direct quote to me from a DGS (Senior Union Officer)

They do seem stuck cosplaying Edwardian trades union activists - instead of actually concentrating on the actual TU issues.

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by Grimm1 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @10:21AM (#26263657)
Right out of the 1900's in fact, gilded age part 2: technologic boogaloo.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by x2w8TGm8BSTd853 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @10:43AM (#26263978)
Are the Pinkertons fair game just like they are in Red Dead Redemption 2? Oh, my: but I don’t have a horse. Hope this won’t prevent me from taking part.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by fallingfrog on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:28PM (#26266264)
The back of the union movement in the United States was pretty much broken when Ronald Reagan broke an air traffic controllers strike by firing 11,359 of them and replacing them with members of the military. He also imposed a lifetime ban on rehiring any striking worker. Then they decertified the union. Sent a message.

Their justification for this was that the strike was illegal, after Reagan himself declared it illegal via an executive order.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/05/reagan-fires-11-00...

Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by fallingfrog on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:41PM (#26267996)
Edit: these kinds of strikes were evidently made illegal in 1955, by an act of Congress, it wasn’t that Reagan simply declared it illegal.
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by Google234 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:04PM (#26266741)
You are spreading fake news. From your article: “ In 1955, Congress had made such strikes punishable by fines or a one-year jail term”
Re:Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees by fallingfrog on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:42PM (#26268016)
Thank you, I missed that. Spreading falsehoods of any kind is not my intention.