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Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by bun_at_work on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @02:57PM (#26254875)
This isn't entirely true. The US subsidizes military costs for all of our allies. It costs a lot, and a huge amount of funds go to that.

There are parts that are like jobs programs, and the contractors intentionally drive up costs as part of their business model, but there are also real expenses to maintaining stability across the parts of the world where our military operates.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by sandworm101 on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @03:54PM (#26255733)
>>> The US subsidizes military costs for all of our allies.

Speaking as one of those allies... not really. Often times US allies spend money they really don't want to in order to keep the US happy. Canada and the UK probably wouldn't have invaded Afghanistan if not for their obligations as US allies. That certainly wasn't cheap. Canada is soon to replace its fighter fleet. Will it buy to cheaper Saab Grippen? Or will it feel obligated to buy the 35, a US program that Canada has paid into (aka subsidized) for many years without actually receiving any aircraft?

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by johnzim on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @04:32PM (#26256315)
This argument would be more persuasive if more countries actually met their recommended NATO spend. In reality it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Take for instance Germany. The federal republic increased their spend to $63.8b last year but that's still a shortfall of ~$27b relative to what a 2% spend would be.

Aggressive estimates (above official estimates) of the UK's (a similar sized ally) spending on Afghanistan in 2011m put the total figure at $26b for 10 years.

The cumulative shortfall in NATO contributions for Germany over that period is more than 10 times greater than the entire invasion and continued operations in Afghanistan during that period.

(edit: grammar and dollar signs)

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @05:37PM (#26257101)
And that argument would be more persuasive if so much NATO spend wasn't funnelled back to the US in both direct and indirect ways.

The UK has Trident and was supposed to be buying F-35s. A number of UK military and civilian aerospace projects were either cancelled (various examples) or crippled commercially (Concorde) because of US interference.

The Afghanistan and Iraq misadventures are still causing significant political costs across Europe. Meanwhile the US has failed to protect the EU against some obvious and immediate threats, including political interference. (Although to be fair it hasn't even protected itself - which is a different problem.)

In any case - the US really isn't a credible victim of exploitation in any of this.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by wongarsu on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @05:31PM (#26257040)
The "recommended NATO spend" is just another way the US is costing its allies money. Sure, in 2019 Germany only spent $50bn (1.3% of GDP). But if the hypothetical enemy is Russia with a military budget of $65bn, then what's the point of spending $80bn? Especially if you are in a treaty that ensures you don't have to defend yourself alone.
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by torstenvl on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @06:04PM (#26257395)
The U.S. has no interest in NATO beyond keeping Europe free. Don't think for a second Russia wouldn't pull a Crimea in the Baltics or Poland if NATO were dissolved. And then what, the European Parliament will suddenly get its act together and figure out how to counteract a superpower? Any attempt to do so will last precisely as long as it takes Russia to shut down energy supplies to Germany.
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by wwtrv on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @07:07PM (#26258007)
That’s a bit of a stretch... shutting down energy supplies to Central/Western Europe would cost Russia more than it would Germany considering that energy exports are 70% of their total exports and generate over 50% of budget revenue.

Besides there are no good reasons for Russia to occupy the baltic states (or atleast the cost would considerably outweigh anything they might gain from it). Subsidizing Crimea is already very expensive and controlling the baltics (no even speaking about Poland) would cost considerably more (both due to lost income and because they’d have to dedicate considerable resources policing the local populations which (unlike Crimea) don’t want them to be there)

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by georgeecollins on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @09:34PM (#26259031)
It may be a stretch that Russia has no good reason to occupy the Baltic states, but maybe not. The reason to occupy Eastern Ukraine was that a lot of Russians live there. Guess where else a lot of Russian live.

Even if you don't take the threat seriously it is obvious that other neutral states do: https://www.reuters.com/article/sweden-nato-idUSKBN28J1UL

I think you are probably right. But this is the kind of thing where being wrong is potentially catastrophic. And the world can change faster than you can adjust your defense posture.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by walleeee on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @07:17PM (#26258106)
By "keeping Europe free" you must mean maintaining the primacy of the United States and her allies in the planetary trade federation?
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by sandworm101 on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @04:37PM (#26256375)
Note that I did not mention germany, rather the US and canada, while the OP said "all of our allies". No two countries are ever the same. And NATO /= USA. There are lots of other organizations which would quality a country as an "ally" of the US other than NATO. Canada and the UK are linked to the US through numerous other organizations (eg NORAD).
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by johnzim on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @05:01PM (#26256654)
Canada's defence spend last year was $22.2b

As they only met 1.31% of their 2% spend (which would be $37.5b) the shortfall is ~$15.3b annually.

Still sounds like a bargain.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by hef19898 on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @04:01PM (#26255831)
Why do you think Germany is looking at the F/A-18 to replace parts of their aging Tornado fleet?
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by wongarsu on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @05:35PM (#26257084)
Because the Eurofighter can't carry the nuclear bombs that the US has stationed in Germany, and Germany wants to be the one providing the pilots and aircraft that deliver them.
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by secfirstmd on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @05:57PM (#26257323)
Also the Eurofighter has no decent and built jamming setup compared to the EA-18
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by hef19898 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:47AM (#26260386)
And because the US, needed to certify the free falling nuclear bombs on aircraft, signaled that this certification would take way longer on non US aircraft.

Which is, more or less, the main reason.

EDIT: I think the F/A-18 is a great choice and one hell of a plane. The other options, a potentially obsolete F-15 and a maybe delivered in time F-35 aren't that great.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by agsamek on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @04:27PM (#26256234)
Read more about petro-dollar scheme. Basically US provides military services to oil producers in exchange for global tax. This is only possible if US is able to retain their military position. So every dollar you think is being subsidized to allied countries is in fact paid back with lots of premium from all countries - both allies and enemies.
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by medium_burrito on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @05:49PM (#26257239)
You do know the US is now the world's #1 oil producer (and food producer).
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by agsamek on Thursday February 25, 2021 @01:04AM (#26260176)
Petro-dollar is not about US dependences on oil producers. It is the other way. It is about forcing all countries to using dollars to buy oil. This allows the US to sell dollars and charge for this in various ways. On the other hand it requires the US to keep military control of oil logistics. The advatege for allied oil producers it that they can trade oil more easily. You know - transferring billions of dollars over international sea in the form of oil requires a lot of support from military just to make it happen.
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by spiralx on Thursday February 25, 2021 @08:41AM (#26262607)
The "petrodollar" is just an urban myth verging on a conspiracy theory when talking about Iraq, the fact that oil is priced in dollars (and it isn't always) doesn't mean countries need to have dollars to buy oil, it's just a convenient and stable unit of account. You can use Euros to buy oil priced in dollars in the same way you can use Bitcoin to buy drugs priced in dollars.
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by voldacar on Saturday February 27, 2021 @08:31AM (#26284726)
> Basically US provides military services to oil producers in exchange for global tax. This is only possible if US is able to retain their military position.

this is just not how economics works at all

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by dsr_ on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @03:18PM (#26255209)
The foreign military aid is also a jobs program.

It gives money to US manufacturers by giving money to other countries that they have to use to buy US products.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by KDJohnBrown on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @03:45PM (#26255609)
The justification for foreign aid to Israel is always pretty much “but it’s OK because most of it comes back to us via arms sales”. Essentially billions of dollars of American taxpayer wealth transferred to defense contractors laundered through the IDF.
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by marshmallow_12 on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @06:43PM (#26257765)
Israel stops Iran from blowing up or conquering the entire Middle East. Also, military intelligence. Also, the military industry is probably more beneficial to the US by being based there rather than being outsourced to China. I think the tax money given to weapons manufactures is paid back in double by tax. Also, you wouldn't want to fight wars with allies in Chinese planes. Hope this answers your concerns.
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by KDJohnBrown on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @07:09PM (#26258025)
> Israel stops Iran from blowing up or conquering the entire Middle East.

The propaganda poster you paint here is dubious.

Have you ever looked at a map? Sunni majority nations KSA, Syria, Kuwait, and Turkiye probably have a lot more to do with it than Israel.

Having been to every middle eastern / near eastern / Balkan / North African nation except Libya, I’m not too afraid of Iran.

Iranians have always treated me better than Israelis or myy my fellow Americans have, even after finding out I’m a queer atheist.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by marshmallow_12 on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @08:05PM (#26258517)
-I’m not too afraid of Iran.

I am. They have sworn to destroy Israel and America. They are developing nuclear weapons to do so. They are funding proxy wars throught the Middle East. They are trying to gain control over syria, iraq, yemen etc. The irgc is probably the best funded terrorist organization in the world https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/ . I'm afraid of Iran.

KSA, Syria, Kuwait, and Turkiye probably have a lot more to do with it than Israel.

Depends what you look for. Most visible, front- line opposition, certainly. But who does all the high profile bombing and intelligence raids and computer hacking? I think it's Israel.

-Iranians have always treated me better than Israelis or myy my fellow Americans have.

That's fine! I'm not asking you to hate Iranians, and i'm also not asking you to love Israelis.

What i am asking you is to recognize that Iran is a global threat to peace and that Israel can offer the best answer. I think that's true.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by yellowcake0 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @12:29AM (#26260013)
> They are funding proxy wars throught the Middle East.

Would it be more honorable if they just invaded countries in the Middle East instead, the way the US does? Of course the US is funding proxy wars as well.

If a beligerant and much more powerful country came across the Atlantic and invaded Mexico and Canada, I know I would want some nukes as a deterrant.

Iran couldn't even defeat Iraq during their brutal eight year conflict. Even if Iran wanted to take over the ME, there is zero chance they would be able to.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by marshmallow_12 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @05:01AM (#26261381)
>If a beligerant and much more powerful country came across the Atlantic and invaded Mexico and Canada, I know I would want some nukes as a deterrant.

Where is your belligerant nation? Not Israel surely. Iran was fine with israel before some terrorist inciters hijacked the country.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by yellowcake0 on Thursday February 25, 2021 @02:15PM (#26266889)
I assumed the implication would be clear from the analogy.

In the last 20 years the US has invaded two of Iran's neighbors, Iraq to the west, and Afghanistan to the east.

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Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by dang on Friday February 26, 2021 @01:45PM (#26278221)
The parent comment is fine because it adheres to the site guidelines. The problem with your comments is that you've been breaking those guidelines. I don't think it's so hard to see the difference? Please use HN as intended or, if you don't want to, please don't post. We're trying for one type of site here and not another.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by KDJohnBrown on Saturday February 27, 2021 @10:23AM (#26285383)
The only difference is Marshmallow ultra-zionist claim that Iran was the belligerent dangerous nation trying to “take over the entire region” in contrast to my far more reasonable argument that the only nation in this skirmish whom has done that is the good ol’ US of A.

Racist anti-Iranian propaganda is almost never moderated whereas anything pointing out the reality of the Iranian situation is flagged or down voted to hell.

You wield the site guidelines in bad faith when it comes to Iran.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by dang on Saturday February 27, 2021 @02:41PM (#26287526)
You're reading too much into how we moderate this place. It's shallower than that. Certainly it isn't based on views about, of all things, Iran.

It sounds as if you may be assuming that it's enough to have a correct opinion. That's not enough. People who have correct opinions (or feel that they do) often believe that their correct opinion entitles them to post as destructively as they please. After all, they're right and their cause is righteous, so what else matters? The answer is that protecting the commons also matters. An internet forum may be a trivial thing, far less important than the fate of a country—nevertheless, those who participate here are responsible for taking care of it. What good does it do the people of Iran, or anyone, if this place goes down in flames?

> Racist anti-Iranian propaganda is almost never moderated whereas anything pointing out the reality of the Iranian situation is flagged or down voted to hell.

Most people who feel strongly about a topic feel that both the moderators and the community are biased against them on the topic. Those perceptions aren't reliable—they're conditioned by distorting factors, such as the tendency to put much greater weight on the posts one dislikes. We don't moderate comments about Iran in any particular way.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Some posts that ought to be moderated don't get moderated, but that's because we don't come close to seeing everything that gets posted here. When people run into an egregious post on a topic that they feel strongly about, they tend to assume that we left it unmoderated on purpose, and jump (inaccurately) to the belief that we must tacitly agree with it. The likelier explanation is that we just didn't see it. Anyone can help with that by flagging the post or by emailing us at [email protected].

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

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Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by dang on Friday February 26, 2021 @12:06AM (#26271535)
Would you please stop posting flamewar comments to HN and using the site for political and/or ideological and/nationalistic battle? It's not what this place is for, and it destroys what it is for. You've been doing a lot of it, unfortunately.

Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation of Iranian history. I'm talking about a repeated pattern of breaking the site guidelines, which is not cool. We ban accounts that do that—we have to, because otherwise everyone starts flaming everyone and soon this place burns to a crisp.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful. The intended spirit is thoughtful, curious conversation.

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Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by dang on Friday February 26, 2021 @02:43AM (#26272255)
We really don't give a shit about that (though I hear you about raspberry pi, and it's refreshing that you didn't say Rust). We're just trying to have an internet forum that doesn't suck, or at least to stave off collapse for a little longer.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by N1H1L on Thursday February 25, 2021 @07:15PM (#26270084)
What is Saudi Arabia doing in Yemen then? Or what has Pakistan done in Afghanistan? Why single out Iran?
Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by KDJohnBrown on Thursday February 25, 2021 @03:38AM (#26260922)
> They are funding proxy wars throught the Middle East.

America is funding proxy wars throughout the midde east too.

> What i am asking you is to recognize that Iran is a global threat to peace and that Israel can offer the best answer. I think that's true.

We are at war with eastasia. We have always been at war with eastasia.

Sorry bro, I don’t subscribe to trumpism, zionism or americanism. No nation is more of a global threat to peace than the usa.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by KDJohnBrown on Wednesday February 24, 2021 @06:50PM (#26257845)
> I think the tax money given to weapons manufactures is paid back in double by tax.

Broken windows fallacy.

Re:The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter... by imtringued on Thursday February 25, 2021 @09:39AM (#26263178)
The irony is that this is why foreign aid never works. It's mostly spent on weapons and if there is no foe the government can just use the weapons to suppress its own population and thus ask for even more foreign aid.

Developed nations don't care because their defense contractors get the money.