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Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by throw14082020 on Sunday February 21, 2021 @08:54AM (#26213431)
I appreciate this move to make GPUs more available for non-crypto users. As someone who wants to buy an AMD GPU to run my Ryzen machine, I have been waiting 2 weeks because there is no supply of GPUs at the RRP price. I can only buy the 2 year old models for double the price they sold for.
Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by iforgotpassword on Sunday February 21, 2021 @10:26AM (#26214102)
We have a global chip shortage. NVidia isn't magically pulling more GPUs out of their asses. Yes as they claim some chips might be defective in a way that makes them unsuitable for a graphics card but still work as a mining chip, but if you believe that they won't redirect perfectly fine chips into mining card production if demand permits it, just because they care so much about gamers and not their shareholders, I got bad news for you.
Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by reader_mode on Sunday February 21, 2021 @10:41AM (#26214245)
Mining demand is volatile and will use whatever gives them best hashing/$ ratio - pissing miners off might lose you some cash short term but gamers are much more susceptible to branding, and not to mention devs optimise for popular hardware - if AMD suddenly became a major market % holder in the gaming market because NV shipped their silicon to miners, once mining dips down they get slammed. And if they are hoping production will ramp up to match demand some time in the future they still want to have a winning product.
Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by my123 on Sunday February 21, 2021 @10:37AM (#26214183)
The mining GPUs that they announced aren’t based on Ampere but on Turing AFAIK from the hash rate numbers that they gave.

Not even the same manufacturing process...

Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by galangalalgol on Sunday February 21, 2021 @10:30AM (#26214133)
How long until gpgpu isn't cost effective for mining? I know a lot of fpgas went on ebay for cheap when the new xilinx line came out. The watt per hash has to be lower for fpgas already. Will the cost of a coin always reflect the current price to make a new one and thus gpgpu will always be a cost effective technique?
Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by ryebit on Sunday February 21, 2021 @10:48AM (#26214312)
I think right now biggest earner for GPU mining is Ethereum. And (I think) it's aiming to move to Proof of Stake sometime in next 12-24 months, which kinda time limits the utility of both Eth-specific mining chips, and large investments in GPU mining (unless mining burns GPUs out really fast?).

Regardless, most proof of work algorithms are already being optimized with ASICs (ala bitcoin)... Or, like Ethereum's ETHASH alg, they have a step requiring high throughput random access to large amounts of memory, ala scrypt or argon (5gb or so for ETHASH right now, and slowly increasing). That's what's kept ASICs from being profitable for Eth, and is probably limiting factor for FPGAs as well. Though maybe there are FPAGs with dedicated memory on par with a modern GPU?

Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by kortex on Sunday February 21, 2021 @11:05AM (#26214442)
Proof of stake is the fusion power of crypto. It's been 6-24 months away since what, 2016? I toured Consensys a few years back and at the time it seemed PoS was right around the corner.

OTOH, it could be cracked tomorrow and value of dedicated silicon will go off a cliff. So I don't blame the GPGPU crowd for that, before even considering the engineering challenges of silicon/FPGA for eth.

Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by ryebit on Sunday February 21, 2021 @11:14AM (#26214530)
Ethereum's Proof of Stake "beacon chain" is already live, with around $6 billion staked (since launch in december 2020). Next year is just formalizing and testing it taking over from the miners. So despite timeframe, there's little uncertainty about the outcome.

https://beaconcha.in/ is a nice explorer to see beacon chain running live.

Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by kortex on Tuesday February 23, 2021 @07:21PM (#26244909)
Neat, thanks!
Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by throwaway-8c93 on Sunday February 21, 2021 @12:32PM (#26215327)
A question out of genuine curiosity: Doesn't the nonce puzzle difficulty adjust to the amount of compute the network has, making it a zero sum game? If every mining pool buys 20% extra GPUs, isn't everyone soon back where they started, wasting hundreds of millions in the process?
Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by ryebit on Sunday February 21, 2021 @12:48PM (#26215442)
I'm not an expert at the mechanism design, but yeah, that's my understanding. The network's goal is to have a block every X seconds; and the difficulty periodically adjusts if blocks come in too fast / too slow (due to hashpower coming on/off line).

(Ethereum & Bitcoin both add some other year-decade timeframe factors to the difficulty, but don't think it affects this basic principle, which acts on week-to-minute timeframes).

I view it as a race to the margins. Anyone who can do it cheaper, or benefit from economy of scale, will get a larger slice of the pie, but at smaller margins... creating a cycle of consolidation.

I think original assumption was that folks running PoW at home on their GPUs would be able to compete, but due to efficiencies of specialized hardware and regional differences in electricity costs, that's just not the case.

---

Others might disagree, but my personal opinion is that this isn't a sustainable way to maintain decentralization, since it seems to obviously trend towards a few large "just turning a profit" players.

There might be some ways to adjust mining incentives to make it work, but this fundmental issue is why I think Proof of Stake has a much more viable future, as it sidesteps this (and the environmental) issues.

Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by nybble41 on Monday February 22, 2021 @12:21PM (#26227166)
> If every mining pool buys 20% extra GPUs, isn't everyone soon back where they started, wasting hundreds of millions in the process?

In theory you could run the entire network on one CPU, though it would take a very long time for the difficulty to adjust downward by that much from its current level. However, the extra capacity isn't wasted—a network secured by the hashing power of a single CPU would be extremely vulnerable since a trivial expenditure would give an attacker >99% of the hashing power and the ability to create forks and double-spend almost at will. The point of spending so much on hashing is to ensure that no attacker could plausibly out-spend the rest of the network and thus acquire a majority of the hashing power.

Now, do we need all of the current hashing power to secure the network? I don't think so. That's a consequence of the initial block distribution system, with a fixed halving schedule for block rewards and a price which has risen much more quickly than anyone anticipated. The cost of reliably executing a double-spend via a 51% attack far exceeds the potential reward for pulling off the attack. At some point the market will be saturated, the price will cease to double every four years (or less), transaction fees will make up a majority of the block reward, and the resulting drop in the total market value of the block rewards will lead to a decrease in hash rate to a level which is sustainable and yet still sufficient to discourage any would-be attackers.

Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by galangalalgol on Sunday February 21, 2021 @10:55AM (#26214361)
So nvidia is releasing a line of crippled cards that will mostly only be used for one year amd then trashed? That is horrible! Glad it may be over soon I guess.
Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by ryebit on Sunday February 21, 2021 @11:08AM (#26214467)
Pretty much, from what I can tell!

I sorta see this as Nvidia trying to create some market segmentation not for the miners, but so gamers can actually get their cards before Nvidia loses mindshare. (Not that I think that's likely)

Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by csunbird on Sunday February 21, 2021 @01:56PM (#26216061)
GPUs have a resale value on second hand market, ASICs or FPGAs usually do not, unless sold to other miners.
Re:Nvidia Limits RTX 3060 Hash Rate by deepakhj on Sunday February 21, 2021 @12:31PM (#26215316)
There’s a global chip shortage due to

1) covid-19. Factory closures, employee, and supply chain issues. 2) 30-40% growth in gaming due to covid-19 3) trump tariffs (for the USA). Gpu exemption expired in January.

Crypto is affecting prices but they aren’t causing the supply issues. I don’t think amd has produced many 6800/6900s. Ryzen 5800/5900 cpus are rarely in stock.