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Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by senthil_rajasek on Friday February 19, 2021 @02:39PM (#26197119)
Hate speech inciting violence is what was banned not any speech.
Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by ceilingcorner on Friday February 19, 2021 @02:42PM (#26197144)
They’ve clearly shown themselves to have huge biases. The policy on “hacked” materials is a good example that was selectively applied only against one side.

I’m really not a Trump fan and find most of the “conservative” media hilariously amateurish, but if you don’t see the obvious bias Silicon Valley has, I’m afraid you’re not paying close enough attention.

From the perspective of a foreign government, why let them control information in your country? As I said, it makes no sense for them to do so.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by senthil_rajasek on Friday February 19, 2021 @02:47PM (#26197214)
My response was directly to your quote,

"restricting the speech of the president of America, clearly they’ll have no issue manipulating other governments."

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by ceilingcorner on Friday February 19, 2021 @03:20PM (#26197567)
As the other commenter said, Trump’s comments were confused at best, and Twitter didn’t actually cite them in their ban. They had a convoluted explanation of how his tweets were actually coded messages.

Even if they did cite his speech as a reason, looking at it as a single event is sort of missing the point. They engaged in similar behavior for years beforehand.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by markdown on Friday February 19, 2021 @03:51PM (#26197886)
The bias is against electoral manipulation and fake news. Hence the "hacked" materials removal.

> The policy on “hacked” materials is a good example that was selectively applied only against one side.

On the side that pushes fake news, yes. That's a good bias to have.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by ceilingcorner on Friday February 19, 2021 @03:52PM (#26197901)
There were plenty of situations in which the information was clearly gained illegally (or totally made up), but since it made Trump look bad, it was allowed. His tax returns, for example.

As I said, if you think one side is somehow unbiased and just, you aren’t paying attention.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by throwawaysea on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:17PM (#26198142)
Here are 11 examples of when this very thing happened, one of which is of course Trump's tax returns: https://thefederalist.com/2020/10/15/11-hacks-leaks-and-hoax...
Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by BitwiseFool on Friday February 19, 2021 @03:38PM (#26197766)
The classic problem is, how do you define hate speech and what counts as inciting violence? Who are the people deciding such things?

If you're a foreign government you do not want some committee of Bay Area Twitter employees deciding that for your national affairs.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by cobraetor on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:07PM (#26198041)
These are great questions, and here's my attempt at answering or elaborating on them.

> how do you define hate speech

Ira Glasser explains it precisely: "When people say they want to ban hate speech, what they mean is they want to ban speech that they hate ... But if you allowed something called ‘hate speech’ to be banned, then the only important question would be ‘who decides? ... If the government is going to be the one to decide what hate speech to ban, it’s not going to be the same speech as the speech you hate, it’s going to be the speech they hate, ... It all ends up coming down to who decides and most often, it ain’t you' https://reclaimthenet.org/former-aclu-head-ira-glasser-expla...

> and what counts as inciting violence?

This is better explained by the legal scholar Jonathan Turley,

"The reason is that while the crime is not clear, the case law is. In Brandenburg v. Ohio, the Supreme Court ruled in 1969 that even calling for violence is protected under the First Amendment unless there is a threat of “imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.”

Trump never called for violence and instead told his followers to go to the Capitol peacefully to “cheer” on those challenging the electoral votes. Such protests at capitals are common and, while reckless, Trump’s speech could as easily be interpreted as a call for protest rather than violence."

https://jonathanturley.org/2021/02/19/want-to-prosecute-trum...

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by ceilingcorner on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:47PM (#26198445)
I had to do a double take there. Ira Glasser, not Ira Glass.
Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by strictnein on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:53PM (#26198506)
Splitting hairs a little bit. The only recourse to an election that was actually stolen is violence.

By stating again and again that the election was stolen what, exactly, was Trump wanting his followers to do about it? What, exactly, did he want for the people marching on the Capitol to do to stop the election from being stolen? Stand outside? Come on...

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by mc32 on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:42PM (#26198405)
Hate speech should be defined by laws rather than ToSes.

With a ToS you can make it up as you like. Speaking against having pets could be hate speech against pet owners. I mean it could mean whatever the mods want it to mean. You can circumscribe it to only affect people you want affected for whatever reason.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by colejohnson66 on Friday February 19, 2021 @05:40PM (#26198984)
> With a ToS you can make it up as you like. Speaking against having pets could be hate speech against pet owners. I mean it could mean whatever the mods want it to mean. You can circumscribe it to only affect people you want affected for whatever reason.

To be fair, Congress could, on a whim, change the definitions of hate speech whenever they felt like it. If you're arguing about selective enforcement with TOS, the police already selectively enforce laws. Hate speech would just be another one they could use against people they don't like, while ignoring those they do. There's no good solution.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by mc32 on Friday February 19, 2021 @05:58PM (#26199157)
Yes agreed. There is no good solution. True hate speech is one of the reasons we can’t have good things. But “hate speech” is a cudgel used to control people and get them used to being controlled.

That said, things like speed limits for example. We all on principle agree to this type of enforcement. One via the licensing and second via legislation. We could make changes if we thought it important enough.

Look at prop 47. People erroneously thought we were prosecuting too many minor thefts. So the law was changed. Now many people are looking to reverse it given the unintended consequences. Point is, at least we can affect legislation directly. Not so with ToSes unless Congress takes up the issue -which so far they are loath to do.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by gnicholas on Friday February 19, 2021 @06:25PM (#26199440)
> To be fair, Congress could, on a whim, change the definitions of hate speech whenever they felt like it.

In the US, the legislature cannot unilaterally create rules that outlaw certain speech (unless that speech falls outside of the guarantees of the US Constitution). Also, there's no current definition of 'hate speech' in federal law.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by foolinaround on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:37PM (#26198333)
this is a subjective opinion, at best.

If it is not clear enough to stand prosecution, then it is not 'hate speech' really. There needs to be clear-cut definitions and enforced uniformly.

Twitter has lost that trust, and now raises alarmms across the world.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by cccc4alll on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:32PM (#26198287)
Your speech is hate speech. You should be banned and censored and deplatformed.
Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by cobraetor on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:19PM (#26198165)
> Hate speech inciting violence

Interesting, but what I don't understand is ... if Trump clearly incited violence, why was he not convicted? Would you say that the American justice system is not fair?

*edit: responding to comment from zimmerman below,

I watched the full trial, but have not seen any clear arguments made in favor of proving incitement. The legal scholar Jonathan Turley explains it better:

"The reason is that while the crime is not clear, the case law is. In Brandenburg v. Ohio, the Supreme Court ruled in 1969 that even calling for violence is protected under the First Amendment unless there is a threat of “imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.”

Trump never called for violence and instead told his followers to go to the Capitol peacefully to “cheer” on those challenging the electoral votes. Such protests at capitals are common and, while reckless, Trump’s speech could as easily be interpreted as a call for protest rather than violence."

https://jonathanturley.org/2021/02/19/want-to-prosecute-trum...

*edit: Here's an informative video on House managers presenting fake evidence (as foolinaround explains below) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW3I3wXrBoo

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by mrzimmerman on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:30PM (#26198271)
Because the Republican party decided that because Trump was no longer president at the time of his 2nd impeachment trial he couldn't TECHNICALLY be convicted:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fact-check-yes-mccon...

Which, if you paid attention to the trial was extremely well reported, so either you genuinely didn't pay attention at all or you're trying to imply anyone in Congress seriously believed he wasn't culpable.

So to answer your question simply, he wasn't convicted because it wasn't politically expedient to the rest of his political party.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by foolinaround on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:42PM (#26198402)
you have to check either your biases or where you get your stories from.

If the impeachment managers did this stuff (fake the evidence such as videos, tweets, etc) in a real court, they would face serious consequences.

The Chief Justice recognized it as a sham and did not participate, and one does not need to like Trump to know what this second round was.

The first one was atleast done by the book...

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by cobraetor on Friday February 19, 2021 @06:00PM (#26199171)
Not really disagreeing with you, but Hacker News guidelines prohibits making negative comments about a person.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Everyone is biased, so it would be far more productive to just refute the central point, which in the case of mrzimmerman's comments on this thread (as you may realize) is rather straightforward[1] to do.

http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

[1] For example, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26198380

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by foolinaround on Friday February 19, 2021 @06:23PM (#26199421)
thanks - unable to edit, i also posted again.
Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by foolinaround on Friday February 19, 2021 @06:23PM (#26199418)
i see the sibling comment and sorry, but i am not able to edit the post.

We all have biases, and yes, it is obvious without me alluding to it.

I have stated the facts that counter zimmerman's note

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by throwawaysea on Friday February 19, 2021 @03:18PM (#26197550)
Can you prove incitement? Because Twitter certainly did not list out any convincing evidence in their blog post about the ban (https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2020/suspensio...), instead sheepishly offering up Trump's absence at the inauguration as evidence. It's hard to blame Trump for the Jan 6th riots when 10000 people showed up at his rally that day and only a couple hundred at most went past the capitol barricades. But simply breaching the barriers is not really a big deal - leftist activists have raided the capitol several times in the last decade as part of their own political activism. So let's focus on those who didn't just trespass but committed other crimes like theft, vandalism, and assault. I bet that number is less than 50.

So to summarize, Trump delivers a speech, he explicitly calls for a peaceful protest (visible in transcripts), and a very very small number of people break the law. That doesn't sound like incitement - it sounds to me like a few individuals made bad decisions and hold personal responsibility for their own actions and should be held accountable. But no court has found Trump guilty of incitement, and I bet none ever will - the evidence is simply not there.

As for Twitter - their power and influence is larger than most governments, and they should not be making unilateral decisions judging incitement and instituting bans of public figures. They operate the new public town square - and they need to be regulated like a public entity. or just nationalized like a utility and required to uphold the first amendment. And other leaders like Macron (https://www.axios.com/macron-social-media-bans-trump-twitter...) and Merkel (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/11/germanys-merkel-hits-out-at-...) are absolutely correct to be alarmed at the reckless actions and immense power of American tech giants, who are ideologically very biased.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by mrzimmerman on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:34PM (#26198299)
He also explicitly told everyone to "fight like hell". I mean, if he's using double speak I can't help that but one part of what he said triggered a percentage of the people to try to find and kill US Congress people, steal computer equipment and other office supplies, and kill police officers.

You're asking everyone who watched the capitol riots to ignore what they saw with their own eyes.

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by mc32 on Friday February 19, 2021 @09:37PM (#26200965)
I’ve heard lots of pols call out “fight like hell” mostly on the dem side, but you hear it from both. During the summer riots we also heard “burn the motherf$&@er down!” etc.
Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by cobraetor on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:40PM (#26198380)
> "fight like hell".

I think taking quotes out of context does not present things as they actually happened or provide a fair analysis. We have to be careful of cherry-picking.

Here's the full context: “fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.” ... “We will not be intimidated into accepting the hoaxes and the lies that we’ve been forced to believe over the past several weeks.”

Per legal scholars, like Jonathan Turley,[1], "those words could be equally consistent with calling for a protest, not violence, as many groups routinely do at state and federal capitals." which explains why the legal system has not been able to convict Trump.

People seem to have varying opinions on this topic, but at the end of the day if you look at the facts, it becomes much simpler to understand.

[1] https://jonathanturley.org/2021/02/11/reckless-rhetoric-is-a...

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by throwawaysea on Friday February 19, 2021 @06:10PM (#26199282)
I don't think what he said triggered anyone to find and kill US Congress people. You're making that claim and connection, but there is no evidence to prove that causality and I am simply not convinced. If someone takes his rhetoric (which I find disagreeable) and thinks it means they should go commit such an act, I feel like almost the entirety of the responsibility is on them as individuals.

Also, consider that Democrats frequently use the same rhetoric when they are talking to their own audiences as well. The Trump defense team showed a 9 minute clip of Democrats using the word "fight" in the recent impeachment proceedings (https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-impeachment-defense-team-sh...).

Re:Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative by ceilingcorner on Friday February 19, 2021 @03:22PM (#26197586)
Whew, that has to be the most snarky, insecure corporate press release I’ve ever seen. Bizarre.