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Re:Vertical farming does not save space by perl4ever on Thursday February 18, 2021 @10:26PM (#26189269)
When I read that timeline, it doesn't sound serious to me. If you're planning to do something in 40 years, then you don't have the faintest clue how to do it now, which means you don't know when you will know how to do it. It could be 5 years or 1,000 or never. You don't know what you don't know.
Re:Vertical farming does not save space by matkoniecz on Friday February 19, 2021 @12:23AM (#26190059)
"First commercial fusion power station will start construction between 2050 and 2060" is mostly guess, but it is an educated guess based on some trends/predictions/achieved work.

But compare it to "First commercial perpetum mobile power station will start construction between 2050 and 2060" or "First FTL spaceship will be launched in 2050s".

Re:Vertical farming does not save space by officehero on Friday February 19, 2021 @01:24AM (#26190334)
The educated guess for the last 50 years was 20-30 years away
Re:Vertical farming does not save space by dosshell on Friday February 19, 2021 @02:52AM (#26190676)
My wife showed me once a chart of both founding and the estimation of the fusion spark (plus net energy). It explained pretty good why the estimation had changed.

My impression is that if humanity had focused on the question and not the politics we would already have fusion capacity.

But do not forget, we still do not know if it is financial benefit to use fusion in the future.

Re:Vertical farming does not save space by bildung on Friday February 19, 2021 @05:21AM (#26191477)
For the last 60 years even! Fusion power was ~20 years away in Stanislaw Lems Summa Technologicae in 1961.
Re:Vertical farming does not save space by cecilpl2 on Friday February 19, 2021 @10:57AM (#26194443)
This is mostly because it has not been funded to the level required for that timeline to be accurate.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/U.S._his...

Re:Vertical farming does not save space by pfdietz on Saturday February 20, 2021 @09:54AM (#26204496)
Funding at the level in that chart would not have given us fusion. That chart is based on a crash program to develop tokamaks, but assumed tokamaks work better than they actually do. The main product of that crash program would have been tears and frustration, not practical fusion.

One can turn this around and say that fusion not getting the funding in that chart is evidence it was not seen as a promising place to invest. One cannot simply presume it's a good investment and ignore any evidence to the contrary.

Re:Vertical farming does not save space by SECProto on Friday February 19, 2021 @01:06PM (#26195947)
> But compare it to [perpetual motion or faster-than-light space travel].

That's a completely inaccurate comparison - perpetual motion and faster-than-light violate fundamental physical laws as we understand them. Net-positive power from fusion is fully within the laws of physics – we've got an example in the daytime sky, and trillions in the nighttime sky. The difficulties with fusion come with shrinking it to a scale that humans can build.

Re:Vertical farming does not save space by skissane on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:19PM (#26198170)
I think you misunderstood the GP comment.

I understand the GP comment as saying "First commercial fusion power station construction will start 2050-2060" is different from "Perpetual motion machine construction will start in 2050-2060" or "FTL spaceship construction will start in 2050-2060" for the very reasons you gave (among others).

You read the GP as saying something different from what you are saying, but I think you are actually both saying the same thing.

Re:Vertical farming does not save space by pfdietz on Saturday February 20, 2021 @09:58AM (#26204531)
What fusion does is come close to ignoring the laws of engineering and economics. That's not quite the same as ignoring the laws of physics, but either of those is capable of rendering a technology a nonstarter.

Specifically, for fundamental reasons DT fusion will have much lower power density than a fission reactor, and so have to be much larger, and therefore have to be much more expensive.

Re:Vertical farming does not save space by perl4ever on Friday February 19, 2021 @05:33PM (#26198904)
I would compare it to a space elevator (for earth, not the moon). Do you think we can attach a timeline to that?
Re:Vertical farming does not save space by abandonliberty on Friday February 19, 2021 @05:13PM (#26198707)
Musk somehow got a bunch of those right. Not as complex, but still filled with unknowns.
Re:Vertical farming does not save space by perl4ever on Friday February 19, 2021 @05:32PM (#26198894)
My gut tells me that fusion power is better analogized to a space elevator than reusable rockets.

But you're suggesting what I already alluded to as a reason for doubting that economic fusion power will ever happen - he's the type of person who would be pursuing fusion if it seemed feasible. It's not that he's the only one, or that he knows about nuclear physics, but it's the sort of risk he would plausibly take if he didn't know of a good reason why it can't be done. Also, of course, you need power for Mars bases.

Re:Vertical farming does not save space by abandonliberty on Sunday February 21, 2021 @02:15PM (#26216217)
I'm not a huge SpaceX watcher, but I suspect it's harder to build electric cars than rockets. Yes, rockets are crazy expensive and time consuming but the fundamental principles are relatively understood.

https://qz.com/1244768/why-are-electric-cars-so-much-harder-...

Tesla's continual hitting of projected targets is much more impressive to me.

You're generally right though: the maturity, risk, and timelines of fusion are much greater than either of these. Better suited to long-term gov't/military spending.

But the general principle applies. Everything is measurable and can be modeled with a predictive distribution. The more unknowns, the more variable the distribution is.

Re:Vertical farming does not save space by shakezula on Thursday February 18, 2021 @11:02PM (#26189535)
We have fusion making consistent and significant gains right now.
Re:Vertical farming does not save space by KarlKemp on Friday February 19, 2021 @04:55AM (#26191327)
We have wind and solar making even faster gains, and being real, right now as well.
Re:Vertical farming does not save space by shakezula on Monday February 22, 2021 @03:26PM (#26230083)
Sure, but solar won't be enough to power us forever, and doesn't scale like fusion eventually will.

We will have energy needs orders of magnitudes more than we do right now within the next 20 years. I'm all for solar, but fusion will be necessary just in terms of dealing with climate change and the energy needs that alone will bring with it. Carbon sequestration, water desalination, etc... are all going to need serious energy behind them and will be knocking on humanity's door before the 2050s.

Re:Vertical farming does not save space by andi999 on Friday February 19, 2021 @01:36AM (#26190389)
So what is the plan for the nuclear waste (neutron capture from the hull activates it badly)?
Re:Vertical farming does not save space by shakezula on Monday February 22, 2021 @03:29PM (#26230136)
The nuclear waste problem is drastically overstated and, like almost every other aspect of nuclear power, is generally fear-mongered and cherry-picked as some sort of "gotcha".

https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/5-fast-facts-about-spent-...

From the article: "the U.S. has produced roughly 83,000 metrics tons of used fuel since the 1950s—and all of it could fit on a single football field at a depth of less than 10 yards."

I'd be more comfortable with a nuclear waste storage facility in my area than I would be with a coal power plant polluting the same given area.

Re:Vertical farming does not save space by dosshell on Friday February 19, 2021 @02:58AM (#26190703)
The radioactive strength and decay time is not that long, right?